I don’t want to but maybe I should? Miata content

At the monthly meeting of the bench racing and chowder marching band society. We decided that racing a Jaguar in Chumpcar. Oops sorry Champ-car racing was a really dumb idea.  

The killer was fuel mileage,  we could make an easy 500 horsepower with great brakes and good handling. But racing fuel mileage would likely be well under 5 mpg 

with a minimum 5 minute refill time  we’d lose 2 laps every refill and we’d be up against cars that would get in the high 20’s ( mpg)  

There is a Miata nearby. Every spring the owner rolls it to the end of the driveway. No sign but you can’t do that. Every fall he rolls it up along side the garage.  He’s done that for 3-4 years now. 

All I know is it’s red and the top is shot.  I’m sure it’s an early one.  I don’t see any rust but Minnesota does use a lot of salt  

What is a fair price to pay for something like that? Let’s assume it doesn’t run and it’s an automatic.  

What would a good transmission cost including clutch pedal assembly?  What would a good used engine sell for?  

Before I cut it up for racing  what would it be worth fixed up and shined?  What is a race version selling for?  

What does it cost to get one ready to go racing?  

I

Don't know the answer to any of your questions, however if you  change your mind about pursuing the Miata, PM me. I have been looking for one for my next project.

Thanks

Steve

Hey frenchyd.  Don't have answers for you, but......  Use the search feature here, and you will find a plethora of info on the Miata.   I can tell you that a lot of people love these things, and can make them go like hell.

In reply to Dirtydog :

I did do a lot of searching before I posted.  There was a lot of talk about how to make them race worthy but I couldn’t find articles that spoke directly about costs or market values etc. 

Jaguars I know well, and could estimate budgets to go racing easily enough.  

Miata is another kettle of fish entirely.  My only knowledge I have is from a Chumpcar forum a few years ago where  several people assured others that   a Miata was a viable candidate when the upper limit of value was $500.  

In reply to outasite :

Maybe I can pick your brain as to how you’d value my situation?  

Knowing nothing more than I do what would you be willing to offer?  What about if it was in nice running condition what is the upper limit you would expect it to sell for?  

FWIW I bought a rust free 93 with 70k miles but neglected maintenance and some chips/ dings but runs drives good for $2500 in the fall. So, deduct maybe $300 for bad top. Make adjustments accordingly as in any other car for other issues (very high mileage, damaged interior etc. ). I’d pay more for 94 and up 1.8 and/or LSD.

Miata values vary quite a bit by region... rust free examples there would probably bring more $$ than here in AZ for equivalent condition, but I'll throw out some numbers, since I have some relevant recent purchases.

Last summer, I picked up a salvage title manual trans '99 for $500.  It had a seized engine but was otherwise mechanically solid.  The salvage title was from hail damage, as a full repaint at retail was enough to total it out.  The top was just OK, but the interior was very nice.  I later picked up an '01 engine with ~120k miles and good compression for $550, and installed it to get the car running.  My goal was just a cheap driver, and I figured I'd replace body panels and repaint as I went.

In December, I stumbled across a clean title automatic '99 for $1800.  It has faded paint, but it ran great, has a near new top, and the interior (leather) is in great shape.

I swapped the engine/trans/pedals, etc. from the manual car into the auto, and sold the engine out of the auto for $750 (good guy price to a friend).  Now I've got a much nicer cheap driver, and a parts car...

Out here a used NB1 (99-00) engine brings a premium and usually goes for $1k plus.  An NB2 (01-05) engine usually brings $700-900.  NA8 engines are really hard to find, and NA6 engines are cheap because no one wants them.

Most of the time, it's easier just to find a manual car, but if everything falls in your lap, the conversion isn't difficult.  5sp manuals can be had for $150, and they're basically the same for all NA/NB cars.  The pedals are a bolt-in, and can probably be had cheap from any of the Miata salvage outlets.  You'll also need a driveshaft, clutch hydraulics, and the ECU from a manual car.

GRM actually has an early Miata they have gone ChampCar/LeMons Racing with.  It’s in their project cars on the main site.

Once they added the turbo, they had reliability issues, otherwise they’ve had good reliability with it, some accidents though, which is part of racing.

From what I remember, they mostly stripped the interior, added an appropriate cage and fuel cell, better brake pads and generally just fixed any potential reliability issues.

you can also look at the prep work that goes into SpecMiata race cars to get an idea of what issues might crop up.

Keith Tanner also wrote some books on fixing and modifying the Miata platform.  They are available on Amazon and similar sites.  FlyinMiata.com also has some articles on their site.

Think of them as a Lotus Elan, lightweight, relatively simple and they enjoy reviving to the moon.  The difference is they are much more reliable and sturdy and will gladly run all day and night on a race track, provided good maintenance is provided ahead of time.

In reply to Dirtydog :

While I’d love to race a Jaguar, the reality is the car has the potential to be very quick indeed.  Having a big car come thundering by a tired driver in the early hours of the morning is not likely to produce good feelings.  

With 2 laps to be made up every 30 minutes or so there would naturally be a lot of passing going on all for naught because even if the car lasted in the end it would be many many laps down. 

if you anger fellow competitors and risk ramming into slower competitors constantly with poor results a certainty why bother?  

In reply to rustybugkiller :

Thank you,  do you believe you bought it at market value or did you get a great deal?  

In reply to Stefan :

That was the argument put forward by several “members”  who are anxious to go Champcar racing. Think of it as a well sorted Lotus Elan.

 I suppose it is a lot more practical. Especially since I can’t seem to find a venue to race a Group 44 tribute car.  

In reply to frenchyd :

I’d say I got a good deal. Now that the maintenance is done and the paint is cleaned up I think I could resell it in the spring for 4-4500. However I’m going to keep it and use it as a track autocross toy. 

In reply to Rodan :

That was extremely helpful. 

Sorry I got interrupted. 

It’s nice to get numbers to work with when you are talking budgets. 

Most of us in our little “club” are older, near or past retirement age on relatively fixed incomes.  So the reality of budgets loom constantly over us.  

What would also help is a brief primer on abbreviations. NA NB etc. I’m foolishly assuming the later bigger engines can be put into the early chassis?  

In reply to frenchyd :

Naturally I would have to see pictures or in person to figure an offer.  Living in north central Minnesota, rust is always the first thing I look for. I am a mechanic not an autobody miracle worker. I have owned a 92 Miata and presently own a 99 Miata. Almost impossible to find a running Miata for less than $2500 in Minnesota. Quite a few persons in the Twin Cities area that are picking up the non running/rusty Miatas and parting them out. Someone has been listing a rolling shell that was destined to be the recipient of a SBF for $1000 on Craigslist for at least 6 months. I looked at a local rusty NA last summer that had been rode hard and put up wet (I think it had been run through a mud bog, drug out and left where it sat). No oil showing on the dipstick. The guy seemed to think his $1500 asking price was in the ball park. It was gone in less than a week.

I'd consider finding a 1.6L spec miata (they're cheap) and changing the engine, even if it's just to a 1.8L.  It will save you considerable cost and effort.

In reply to outasite :

The guy who owns it is a recluse we call the walking man. That’s all we ever see him doing is walking.  In his favor he used to be chubby but now seems extremely fit.  

In reply to Snrub : that’s what I assume this one is, a 1.6 liter early one.  

In reply to outasite :

Thank you for those numbers. We in the “club” had been thinking something like that was a $500 piece and in our sort of informal budget.  If entry level to Miata ownership is $2500 we need to rethink this whole direction. 

Once you’ve made the purchase, getting a car ready to race is easily going to run $3500+ and by the time entry fees are paid, travel costs budgeted, spares purchased, etc That’s a pretty big burden to put on a social security income even when divided by 4-6 guys. 

True none of us rely solely on social security  but our days of earning income are either over or nearly so. We’ve all raced before so we are aware how costs can and often do escalate.  

In reply to rustybugkiller :

Good information. Thank you 

Put on your GRM T-shirt and go talk to the man. The special word is "Challenge" and it should come up in conversation.  Even if you dont get the car right then you will have found out what he is thinking and planted a seed.

In my mind that car you describe is worth no more than 1000 and probably net out better if sold for parts.

Pete

A non runner I put in the $500-$1000 ballpark.

I will disagree on the decision not to run the jag solely on fuel mileage.  Truth is that the Miata is likely not going to be competitive in chump (at least in the southeast region) as they just don't make enough power to keep up with the front runners. 

Personally if I am not going to be competitive Id just assume run something i want to with some power.  I also like oddballs and the jag certainly qualifies for that.  Part of it is a personality thing. If you love the chase and hitting your lines to pass the higher powered  cars the Miata is a good choice.  Just prepare to be pulled hard on the straights(backstretch of road Atlanta for example).  I found it a little more relaxing as well to drive something with power. I didn't have to drive in my mirrors or divebomb to make a pass. 

I had a great time in my non competitive V8 rx7 and rented a seat in a Chevy powered 93 Lincoln Town car. Both ran about 150 mph at Daytona while the Miatas were 110-120.  If you are going to be running small tight tracks the Miata would obviously be better suited. 

The problem is that cars tend to age as one piece. A car that is well cared for mechanically is usually cosmetically good as well and hits the upper side of value. The cheap beater cars tend to have some sketchy mechanicals that go along with them. You can get into a Miata for $1000 in a lot of the country, but it's going to need some sort of significant looking after. You can also spend $4k on the same car and find one that needs tires and brakes and is ready for a track day. It's really about what value you place on that middle $3k. The biggest issue with any $1000 buy in race car is that the initial price of the car is only a fraction of what you spend racing, but you already know that. 

If you read the GRM Miata saga one thing sticks out to me. They make the choice to put in a cheaper high mileage motor and then they almost immediately blow a head gasket and lose a race weekend. I don't know what LeMons entry fees are up to, but I think it's more than the delta between the cheap motor and the "good" motor. 

As always, if you can start with a caged legal car, you're ahead of the game. When I talk to people about racing I always have them look for complete cars for the series they want to race in, then I point out that those cars are anywhere from 30-70% of what you would spend building one, so if that looks expensive, it's time to rethink things. 

There are a LOT of reasons to build your own car. You know the car, know what to trust, know the quality of components, can build it to fit your individual drivers, all sorts of stuff. I'll build a car someday just for the adventure, but I know it will be the expensive way to go racing. 

After all that, the big advantage of a Miata is running costs. Take the tire/brake/gas costs for a Jag and cut them in half. That might be the difference between 2 races a year and 3. 

frenchyd said:

What would also help is a brief primer on abbreviations. NA NB etc. I’m foolishly assuming the later bigger engines can be put into the early chassis?  

Sorry, I sometimes forget that this isn't a Miata forum... 

NA/NB/NC/ND are the chassis codes:

NA - 1990-1997, NB 1999-2005, NC 2006-2015, ND 2016-

They are further broken down by significant changes within the groups:

NA6 - 90-93 1.6L cars, NA8 94-97 1.8L cars.  NB1 99-00, NB2 01-05.  There are 3 NC variants, but that's probably not relevant to your interests.

NA6s are the lightest, but are hampered by the smallest brakes and least power stock.  As time progressed, Miatas got more power, biger brakes and more chassis bracing.  Of course, they also got heavier.  The good thing is that almost everything chassis/suspension/powertrain is interchangeable between the NA/NB cars.  

The NB2 has, arguably, the best stock engine with the most compression and variable valve timing.  A good route is stuffing an NB2 engine into an NA to replace the 1.6.  I'm running an '03 engine in my '92 track car, and it's a great combo.  The later engines are also the cheapest (other than the 1.6) because they're the most common, and because most folks are scared off by the VVT, which can simply be left non-functioning in a swap.  This is what I did with my '99 for now... it will eventually get MS3, which can control the VVT, and that's how my '92 is set up.

From a chassis standpoint, an NB2 is also the best starting point.  Biggest stock brakes, stiffest chassis.  NB also had 6sp manual as an option.  If you can find a non-runner that just needs an engine, you may even find it cheaper than a non-runner NA in equal condition.  The values of the NBs are at the bottom of the depreciation curve, but the NAs are starting to climb as collectors are getting interested.

In reply to frenchyd :

I think I am about the same age as you. Over the years I was able to buy inexpensive cars to drive, use as a project or flip. However, finding $500-$1000 dollar cars that are not rust buckets or don't have a clogged inoperative fuel system from old oxygenated fuel after sitting for years is almost impossible. I need to move into the present and get used to paying more. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Next time he pushes it out is your excuse to meet him. I drove my wife and kids crazy back in the day when I used to knock on the door of stranger's houses to inquire about cars that had not moved from the same spot in months.