ebonyandivory said:
I had more fun, never felt safer and more in control and was never stuck and never surprised by my spooled rear. It's a shame the vast majority of the general public would rather have the power killed and be barely able to manage 3mph through a snowy intersection than get a little sideways.
Spools or even clutch pack diffs in the rear are "fun" in the snow, in that it is impossible to maintain control.
First LSD car I ever had, I got stuck in a gas station parking lot because the car would not turn, just crab sideways.
When (not if) the tires spin on a crowned road, you will slide off of it. Or just bang the curb very, very hard.
Knurled. said:
Spools or even clutch pack diffs in the rear are "fun" in the snow, in that it is impossible to maintain control.
I guess we can agree to disagree. I drove a 2wd Ranger manual transmission and an XJ Cherokee both with effective locked rears over 8 snowy New England winters and I had zero issues maintaining control. It doesn't take a genius to understand throttle and steering control. I guess if someone thinks the gas pedal is an on/off switch they may have issues. If I'm wrong, I'll need it explained to me why I had absolutely no issues maintaining full control over my trucks.
Out of curiosity, what RWD vehicle(s) did you drive through snow storms where both rear tires were effectively locked together?
PS: I LOVE your signature. Rest In Peace CB
In reply to Knurled. :
Maybe if you're on the gas 100% all the time... if you feather the throttle, it's not at all hard to make the car do what you want it to... but that's also with RWD, so ymmv...
Ottawa (Eric) said:
vwcorvette said:
Wife's Smartcar requires a little dance of the key and some instrument panel button pushing to defeat, but then you lose ABS too. That car WILL come around on you then!
So we owned a later Smartcar that had removed the ability to disable traction control, and that's what caused me to ditch that car. On a steep hill in the snow (with snow tires) it would detect slip and kill power instead of letting me keep momentum up, I would basically be stalled half-way up that damn hill (divided road) and cause a minor traffic jam as the it walked its way up at 10km/h. I spit on its grave.
What year? Ours is 2012. The procedure is akin to pulling fuse 11 in that it disables traction, stability, and ABS. Without this procedure I can't get the car up the 1000 feet to our house in bad weather cause, as you point out, it kills engine power in addition to using the brakes to slow wheel spin. Just kind of shuts down.
I had a Honda Odyssey. Owner's manual said that if you can't get moving on a slippery surface to turn off the traction control so the wheels could spin. This car would not move on slippery surfaces even if floored. The engine would not even rev up due to the wire controlled throttle. I had a 2008 WRX (open electronic diffs) that was the same. If none of the 4 wheels had grip the wheels would not receive power. This car would hit the brakes if a power shift induced a little wheelspin.
jharry3 said:
I had a Honda Odyssey. Owner's manual said that if you can't get moving on a slippery surface to turn off the traction control so the wheels could spin. This car would not move on slippery surfaces even if floored. The engine would not even rev up due to the wire controlled throttle. I had a 2008 WRX (open electronic diffs) that was the same. If none of the 4 wheels had grip the wheels would not receive power. This car would hit the brakes if a power shift induced a little wheelspin.
Geez, what's the point of even having AWD if that's how it behaves? With my GTI if I switch off traction control I can spin the tires all day long and the brake actuated limited slip system is strong enough to leave two very nice black stripes behind, all with barely any torque steer; I can hammer the throttle in first gear and the car goes straight without any corrections (on level pavement).
I didn't realize just how poorly some of these systems were programmed.
ebonyandivory said:
Knurled. said:
Spools or even clutch pack diffs in the rear are "fun" in the snow, in that it is impossible to maintain control.
I guess we can agree to disagree. I drove a 2wd Ranger manual transmission and an XJ Cherokee both with effective locked rears over 8 snowy New England winters and I had zero issues maintaining control. It doesn't take a genius to understand throttle and steering control. I guess if someone thinks the gas pedal is an on/off switch they may have issues. If I'm wrong, I'll need it explained to me why I had absolutely no issues maintaining full control over my trucks.
Out of curiosity, what RWD vehicle(s) did you drive through snow storms where both rear tires were effectively locked together?
PS: I LOVE your signature. Rest In Peace CB
1985 RX-7. Breakaway torque is way tighter than a Traction-Lok. (>200ft-lb) Snow does not have enough grip to break the diff loose. It's not a matter of throttle control at all - this is trying to creep forward in a parking lot and the rear tires both slide because they are fighting each other. Likewise, when you have to move forward from a stop in heavy slush, you're going to spin the tires if you are not on proper winter tires, it takes power to push the fronts through the slop.
It barked and popped when turning in the dry. Other than that it felt just like a spool. Maada actually issued a TSB for people who complained about all the popping and banging: replace the diff with an open one...
This may not be a useful data point, but I was really worried about my 981 Cayman not having an LSD before I bought it. Turns out I had nothing to worry about; I can hoon around in it just the same as I did in my Miata with LSD. So I think for a RWD mid- or rear engine format, LSD probably matters a lot less.
MrFancypants said:
Ranger50 said:
E-diffs are the worst.
Man, I strongly disagree. My GTI has it and it's amazing. Of course I'd rather have a proper limited slip, but the electronic brake actuated system is at least 80% as effective when used right.
i've spent some time driving an open-diff GTI, and i own a GTI with the factory (Haldex-style) LSD. Frankly, i'm not sure I'd agree with you - especially in slick conditions. Even as someone coming out of an AWD WRX, I've been pretty impressed with the LSD in this GTI. I test drove a new '18 base model when i bought this one, in the rain, and it was all tire spin and flashing traction lights.
irish44j said:
MrFancypants said:
Ranger50 said:
E-diffs are the worst.
Man, I strongly disagree. My GTI has it and it's amazing. Of course I'd rather have a proper limited slip, but the electronic brake actuated system is at least 80% as effective when used right.
i've spent some time driving an open-diff GTI, and i own a GTI with the factory (Haldex-style) LSD. Frankly, i'm not sure I'd agree with you - especially in slick conditions. Even as someone coming out of an AWD WRX, I've been pretty impressed with the LSD in this GTI. I test drove a new '18 base model when i bought this one, in the rain, and it was all tire spin and flashing traction lights.
Well yeah.... in the rain it's still a torquey FWD car. You can only do so much to cheat physics, especially if you thunderfoot it. Also with the traction control turned on you're not getting the full effect because the car is using the brakes to limit wheelspin as opposed to using the brakes to shift torque from one axle to the other.
The best way to see how effective XDS is would be to get a scan tool and manually disable it. The difference is pretty dramatic.
You are right that the slicker the surface the less effective it is. I'm confident that if I pin the throttle open and then stand on the brakes that the power of all four brakes and all four tires will strangle the engine and bring the car to a halt. But I'm not so confident that a single brake caliper can contain 100% of the torque the engine can put out. With this in mind, understanding that limitation, the system is excellent if you're smooth on the throttle.
vwcorvette said:
What year? Ours is 2012. The procedure is akin to pulling fuse 11 in that it disables traction, stability, and ABS. Without this procedure I can't get the car up the 1000 feet to our house in bad weather cause, as you point out, it kills engine power in addition to using the brakes to slow wheel spin. Just kind of shuts down.
OK it was a 2008 Canadian model, so maybe I should have said second gen W451 to be more specific. I tried the three-hand disable procedure from the W450 but it didn't work and was told by the dealer that they removed that capability. Or maybe they had changed it and I didn't get it right. I guess it wouldn't matter anyhow since the Fortwo was suppose to be my wife's DD and she wouldn't go through the hassle of a three-hand-disable every time she started the car, and not sure I would have trusted her/the-car for the rest of the trip without all the nannies deactivated either. I picked it up because it was suuuper cheap, the Ontario government gave a massive enviro-credit to the leasees and after three years lease expiry the resale value was worse than a S-Class Mercedes. They were so cheap I decided to try it for a short while, but didn't make it past one full Ottawa winter.
Of course now I drive a RWD Mercury Grand Marquis through the last four Ottawa winters. No LSD like the P71's and the hooning possibilities are endless. I keep Beastie Boys "sabotage" queued up in the CD player...
Knurled. said:
ebonyandivory said:
I had more fun, never felt safer and more in control and was never stuck and never surprised by my spooled rear. It's a shame the vast majority of the general public would rather have the power killed and be barely able to manage 3mph through a snowy intersection than get a little sideways.
Spools or even clutch pack diffs in the rear are "fun" in the snow, in that it is impossible to maintain control.
First LSD car I ever had, I got stuck in a gas station parking lot because the car would not turn, just crab sideways.
When (not if) the tires spin on a crowned road, you will slide off of it. Or just bang the curb very, very hard.
my old 318ti was one of the very last BMW non-M cars to have any sort of LSD. It was an early 96 with the "winter package" which consisted of heated seats and a very mild Limited Slip Diff. While I could get it to go down a snowy road sideways, if driven sanely, it keeps the rears together and pushing the car. The one time I got stuck, I got out by spinning the wheels together and then clutching in, making them stop instantly and transferring their momentium to the car itself, worked a treat with two wheels turning, not so much with one.
An overly tight clutch LSD can be a pain in the snow, but a slightly looser one is great. For the most part, the tighter locked the rear end is, the more it will want to slide around in the snow and the more you'll need to slide it around to get best performance from the car. But it'll also be more controllable while sliding than an open diff. So IMO, it's a tradeoff for harder to drive with more ultimate capability.
Nugi
Reader
12/31/19 12:57 p.m.
All I hear when I read this thread:
"Dude, you should totally weld your diff."
Talk me out of it or whatever... (or suggest 6011 vs 7018 or a different axle/diff.) Rwd volvos mostly use Dana 30/31 rear ends hinthint.
If you don't want to weld it, assuming an LSD for a Jeep Dana 30 front will fit the Volvo D30, the Eaton TrueTrac for the D30 is a somewhat special beast. It's a Torsen, but unlike most, it's got noticeable preload, so it's not prone to a one-wheel-peel if you have extremely low traction on one side or one tire in the air.
