rslifkin said:
Wally (Forum Supporter) said:
A road use tax shouldn't be that hard to figure out. In states that have regular safety inspections they already record your mileage, so using that they can bill accordingly.
I've mentioned that before, and every time I've gotten the "but how do they know how much you drove out of state?" question. Which I don't think really needs to matter that much...
I spend a lot of miles driving out of state, but I also live in PA and as you can see from the chart above, I try to avoid buying gas when I'm home.
PA is an annual inspection state, so yearly mileage is recorded. I suppose if I was doing these out-of-state trips with an EV, it would be kind of annoying to pay road taxes for roads I don't use, but given the actual $ figures, I wouldn't be bothered. I pay school taxes for schools I'll never use (no plans to start having kids in my 50's), but that is just part of life these days. But since PA has no annual EV fee beyond the standard $46/year registration.
I was wondering if the high gas taxes in PA are related to road density, but according to this chart PA is high (7th out of 50), but not high enough to justify the high taxes compared to the states with greater density and lower taxes.
In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :
You need to compare miles of road vs population, or some other metric. Cities have denser roads than rural areas but rural areas do not generate enough taxes to cover maintenance.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Or maybe $ spent per capita?
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
I'm far from poor, but I am low income by choice. Cheap house, cheap car, super fun job in the arts that pays crap.
Much respect; you have a very island attitude.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :
Being poor is definitely expensive. I'm far from poor, but I am low income by choice. Cheap house, cheap car, super fun job in the arts that pays crap. I could technically buy a $12k EV with cash, but it would put a big dent in my rainy day fund... not to mention my old rusty car addiction.
It's definitely admirable you live like this if you can, and it works for you. It's one thing to be poor due to circumstance and you can't get ahead because everything costs too much. But if you choose to live like a cheapskate 
and ALSO complain that things are too expensive, I have little sympathy. 
Hey, I grew up beneath the poverty line and I know how hard it is to get ahead if you want to. I'm still not rich, but I've decided that certian things and comforts are worth working hard for, and I'm not going to complain if things I like are too expensive. 
Chris_V said:
But if you choose to live like a cheapskate and ALSO complain that things are too expensive, I have little sympathy.
I don't know how it happened but in the last decade I started making really good money and in the last 2 years damn good money.................................outwardly it may seem I'm complaining but I'll be the first to admit I am cheap as hell.
I've never sepnt more then 17K for a car becuase I can't justify it in my mind.
Be it for different reasons than Curtis, it still elminiates EVs from consideration for me.
In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :
PAs fuel taxes and a number of other restrictive rules aimed at trucking were put through early on with lobbying by railroads trying to protect their business.
It still boggles my mind why some people get so mad about EVs. Who cares? Don't want one? Don't buy one.
They make sense for a lot people and they don't make sense for other people. What's the problem?
Tom1200 said:
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
I'm far from poor, but I am low income by choice. Cheap house, cheap car, super fun job in the arts that pays crap.
Much respect; you have a very island attitude.
If only I lived on an actual island. Central PA in winter is very much not Key West
I'm betting road use tax for EVs will end up being something like you either have a GPS device in your car to record actual miles driven (like what some insurance companies offer) or a flat rate tacked onto your registration.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Antartica is an Island with weather similar to Central PA.
In reply to mblommel :
People love to be outraged about everything. It's become a personality type.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
They have gone to litigatory means to protect their ability to NOT sell battery packs.
And that's just another reason why I'll never buy a Tesla.
Tom1200 said:
Chris_V said:
But if you choose to live like a cheapskate and ALSO complain that things are too expensive, I have little sympathy.
I don't know how it happened but in the last decade I started making really good money and in the last 2 years damn good money.................................outwardly it may seem I'm complaining but I'll be the first to admit I am cheap as hell.
I've never sepnt more then 17K for a car becuase I can't justify it in my mind.
Be it for different reasons than Curtis, it still elminiates EVs from consideration for me.
I'm hoping it's not about political beliefs. But if so, it's your right to do as you wish.
Chris_V said:
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :
Being poor is definitely expensive. I'm far from poor, but I am low income by choice. Cheap house, cheap car, super fun job in the arts that pays crap. I could technically buy a $12k EV with cash, but it would put a big dent in my rainy day fund... not to mention my old rusty car addiction.
It's definitely admirable you live like this if you can, and it works for you. It's one thing to be poor due to circumstance and you can't get ahead because everything costs too much. But if you choose to live like a cheapskate and ALSO complain that things are too expensive, I have little sympathy. Hey, I grew up beneath the poverty line and I know how hard it is to get ahead if you want to. I'm still not rich, but I've decided that certian things and comforts are worth working hard for, and I'm not going to complain if things I like are too expensive.
I'm a cheapskate because I have priorities where my money goes.
I tend to trade work to achieve goals. Not in a 9-5 job/ career sense. But I'll do this for you if you'll pay for this for me. Or I'll do that part myself because I'll enjoy doing it.
Wally (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :
PAs fuel taxes and a number of other restrictive rules aimed at trucking were put through early on with lobbying by railroads trying to protect their business.
I'm outraged that you're outraged about my being outraged............oh wait that still makes me outraged, OK I'm cool with it.
On a serious note I'm totally cool with EVs; if it works for what folks need that's all that matters. I only started this poo tornado becuase I just didn't see them as something everyone would have (must stop thinking out loud).
In reply to Tom1200 :
They're certainly not for everyone at this point but the outrage they generate is hysterical. Go on the book of faces and look for any post with the Tesla semi. Granted it's the worst of the electric trucks on the road right now but the generic anti electric rants get really entertaining. If any of them stopped and looked at facts, many of them would come out ahead with an eCascadia or other electric of would benefit in the future from it's tech developments.
In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :
Any kind of change generates outrage in certain personality types or something.
You should see how insulted some people got on speedtalk when it was pointed out that con rod bearings are located by crush, and the tangs are just for assembly. "BUT THE GREATEST PISTON ENGINES EVER MADE, AIRCRAFT ENGINES IN WWII, HAD DOWELED ROD BEARINGS!! ARE YOU SAYING THE ENGINEERS WERE STUPID???"
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
It's got to be an exhausting way to live. There are a few people I follow on Twitter just to see when they're going to break down.
In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :
Truth. I'm here on this earth to learn. Can't do that by putting my fingers in my ears and saying "la la la la la." I LOVE when someone leads me to new understanding.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
I think my problem is that I look at things like EV's not as a political issue but rather an economic issue.
I'm in a place where I can still enjoy ICE 's as wonderful toys. Just like my approach to Jaguars. As wonderful toys. But lousy commuter vehicles.
Trying to understand others position. Maybe those who can't have both toys and transportation. I understand the desire for the familiar over the new.
Back in the 50's 60's automatics we're the devils device. Gradually in the 70's -80's - 90's they became the normal. We are now down to less that 2% manuals and with Corvettes all automatic probably 1%
So maybe that's about how long it takes some people to adapt to something different. 50 years.
STM317
PowerDork
2/16/23 11:05 a.m.
frenchyd said:
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
So maybe that's about how long it takes some people to adapt to something different. 50 years.
It's not just consumer adjustment that takes place over time. The products are improved as well.
Automatic transmissions used to be less efficient and slower than a manually shifted transmission. That's no longer the case thanks to a whole bunch of people devoting a bunch of time and money to improving automatics.
In reply to STM317 :
Very true. I was just talking about electronics with someone last night. My first flat-screen TV was when LED first came out. I got a 52" Sony for $1800 from Best Buy and it seemed like it weighed 50 lbs. Now you can buy that same size TV in Smart, 4K, HDR, CEC, wifi, and USB for $200 at WalMart and it weighs less then my laptop.
One of the additional reasons I'm not in an EV right now is that they are new, expensive, and only a few manufacturers make them in enough quantity that they are meeting demand. I will buy an EV in the same exact way I buy an ICE car: wait until a vehicle has been on the market for enough years that you can research how long-lived they are, what their common failure points are, how expensive parts ended up being, and once I can determine which ones are a good bang for my buck.
For instance, when looking for a backup DD, I might choose a W210 instead of a Tacoma. The Tacoma had recalls for terrible frame rust, and yet they still command sky-high prices, while the W210 depreciates like you would expect from a luxury brand, but they have proven to be indestructible tanks and parts are cheap and plentiful. I would have been pissed if I bought a brand new 6.0L powerstroke truck and didn't wait to find out that they were all going to self-destruct to the tune of $13,000 in repairs. I'll do the same with an EV. Wait and see which ones are a crap shoot and which ones are diamonds in the rough. I'll let y'all be the guinnea pigs and use your money on the newer-car gamble before I spend mine
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
I like your thinking. It's logical to me.
I'm only going to wait a year or two and I'll buy new. Because in my 80's even 90's I don't want to be fixing or paying someone to fix it.
I'll assume in a year or two there will be credible sources to help me make that decision.
mblommel said:
It still boggles my mind why some people get so mad about EVs. Who cares? Don't want one? Don't buy one.
They make sense for a lot people and they don't make sense for other people. What's the problem?
Identity politics. You have to hate X to stay in Y group, because Y group hates the environmentalism that all EVs are about.
Their hatred now has rapidly transformed into hating new things now, regardless of what it is, because a "new" thing easily has the identity of something "progressive" or "different".
