If it's so easy to get on track, why is it so hard to get a car?

Olemiss540 said:

LukeGT said:

Part of it definitely depends on how much you're willing to think outside of the traditional Miata/BMW/Si/Pony car box. I troll marketplace absolutely every day and I routinely find $5-10k cars that could easily be combo daily/weekend track cars as long as you're not looking to set any records. Also, I maintain that even now there's still a Mustang out there for pretty much any budget, but I'm biased :) 

Or you can stay firmly in the traditional BMW box, buy any e36/e46 or 1 series for 5k and track it brutally, be faster than any of the "old school" $5k crap boxes, and relatively easy to wrench on. 

Inflation exists people. It's a real thing and so comparing $5k car today to a $5k car 5-10 years ago is silliness. Hell go back 30 years in your brain machine and buy a new bmw m3 for nickles if your going to ignore inflation.

i tried to track an e36 for "cheap".  it ended up being much more expensive to track reliably - lots of maintenance, and you need pricey BMW maintenance parts.  mazda parts are cheaper, you don't NEED as much maintenance, and you can get mazdamotorsports pricing if you do one track day or two autocrosses per year.

I've thought heavily about an RX-8. Mazda obsession aside, they really are that good to drive. Did an AER enduro at NJMP in one, and I'm not sure I've ever had more fun in a car.

Something that I think about (at least at my income level, which is slightly slightly slightly below that of an oil baron), is that we try to get one car to do it all. I can't imagine taking any car to the track that I wouldn't be prepared to totally write off. With that in mind, I think there are a ton of sub 10k options in mind that can reliably and safely get someone on track. None of this is particularly novel info, but I just always try and talk people out of getting one car to do it all.

Matt Huffman said:

brandonsmash said:

In reply to Matt Huffman :

Only with Mazda rotaries is "79k on ORIGINAL engine!" notable as "extremely reliable" and worth bragging about, complete with some weird Spongebob clickbait meme. 

Can you imagine Toyota trying to sell a car on that premise? "Our cars are so good they're not likely to require an engine-out repair or replacement before 80,000 miles!"

That reminds me of the classic Dodges that had something like a 30-day manufacturer's warranty. 

 

i was using satire in response to all the folks who say that rotaries in general and rx8s in particular are super unreliable.  it's just not true.  and when you think that they have just as much in common with 2-stroke engines, which need much more frequent rebuilds, getting 200+ hp out of a lightweight engine the size of a toaster oven revving to 9,000+ rpms is pretty impressive.  i'm up to 86k now, showing no signs of slowing down.  in my opinion not bad for the benefits that a rotary engine provides: lower weight, lower CG, better weight distribution.

Honestly don't follow why we needed to dog on the rx8 or the video, keep on trucking Matt - rx8s are on my bucket list I'm just scared of them lol.

My autocross toy is probably the cheapest thing ($1500) at 95% of the events I go to and usually in the top 5 raw time.  Everyone needs to just buy Zambonis converted into race cars! 

My Miata is a classic case of "while I'm there" upgrades and I about as quick as my skills want on track at 240 HP.  I'm about $15K into it at this point, not exactly cheap but not terrible and ready for about any track event that I care to take it to.

What makes me shake my head is people spending new car money for things that run the risk of being written off in the event of things going squirrely.  So now add in the cost of track insurance to your HPDE day ($300-500 per weekend).

In reply to KyAllroad :

I have always tried to have the policy of only racing / tracking a car that if I write it off I can replace it within 3 months.

There are loads of uncompetitive races cars out there for 5-7K.

I can by one of those and the spend 3-4K making it semi competitive.

KyAllroad said:

My autocross toy is probably the cheapest thing ($1500) at 95% of the events I go to and usually in the top 5 raw time.  Everyone needs to just buy Zambonis converted into race cars! 

My Miata is a classic case of "while I'm there" upgrades and I about as quick as my skills want on track at 240 HP.  I'm about $15K into it at this point, not exactly cheap but not terrible and ready for about any track event that I care to take it to.

What makes me shake my head is people spending new car money for things that run the risk of being written off in the event of things going squirrely.  So now add in the cost of track insurance to your HPDE day ($300-500 per weekend).

its a balancing act.  the cost of storing, maintaining, insuring, and plating a car that is only used for track days is almost the same as the cost of insurance.  For me, somebody who isn't very fast, doesn't currently own a tow vehicle, and has a spouse who insists that every car we own fit in the garage this means that a dual purpose fast hatch / sedan almost makes sense.  I say almost because at the moment my 2024 plans involve keeping the corvette.  

So I think we can safely say JG touched a nerve with this one..........makes for a fine post. Lots of different perspectives.

I have a few, hopefully useful thoughts to add here. 

It's not necessarily hard for me to find a low-cost car out here in the East Bay, fortunately. As someone who lives in an apartment, anything that's interesting and modified in any way, needs to be stored to prevent attempted theft. Which adds to the financial consideration of owning a car. So, even the least expensive track cars will have the added tax of "Where can I park and work on this thing?"

I also don't like debt, so getting a car I have to pay for over time, is a little stressful. Especially with the interest rates right now. With that, I got a NA Miata right now and I'm just starting my journey, so I've got plenty of runway before I push the limits of my stock car. Which feels like the better, and much more gradual cost of getting on the track and learning how to be a better driver. 

Honda Fits and Chevy Sparks are great though! I still have notifications just in case one with the right price shows up. 

In reply to Duckzero :

I raced a NA Miata in Showroom Stock C back in the 90s; I also used it as a daily driver.

It was great fun on and off track.

In reply to ClearWaterMS :

The deductible for track insurance on my M4 was close to what I paid for my c5. That's to say nothing of the premiums. Plus newer faster cars have more expensive consumables generally. Yearly road insurance is what one hpde event insurance would have cost. It's hard to imagine the cost being cheaper at the same risk tolerance. At least if you're not renting monthly storage or something.

ClearWaterMS said:

The problem is that how many of those cars are actually track capable?  I'm not talking about the ability to go out and turn a single hot lap, but instead go out and run a session without overheating something.  

 

The mid-late 90s were amusing with respect to watching what Fox body Mustang trackies had to do to make and keep their cars reliable.

Pads every session, rotors every track day (if lucky), constant blowing head gaskets at #4 or #8 because the cooling system for the 5.0 shortchanged those cylinders, wild suspension geometry modifications to keep the front tires from dying early deaths due to the horrible stock geometry, bodyshells only good for a year or two before all five of the spot welds holding the car together would crack apart...

My favorite Fox track story was a Mustang that suffered a hood latch failure at the bottom of the Corkscrew at Laguna Seca.  Picture how the latch on one of those works, then picture how much the chassis would flex the core support to the right when you basically land the car on the left front wheel in that corner.  Whoomph.

And then you hear about FM taking a turbo ND there, running a full track day, then driving it back home.  That would have been the track equivalent of "immortal" 30 years ago.

When the SN95 came out, there was a run on junkyard front suspension/subframe assemblies because the suspension geometry and especially the front wheel bearings were so much better, and it all bolted in to the Fox chassis.  The bearings still needed to be replaced regularly, but the better design (preloaded bearings, and separate from the brake rotor) was a game changer.  And the Cobra brakes were an instant upgrade, apparently Corvettes used the same caliper and you could find them for a lot less money.

theruleslawyer said:

In reply to ClearWaterMS :

The deductible for track insurance on my M4 was close to what I paid for my c5. That's to say nothing of the premiums. Plus newer faster cars have more expensive consumables generally. Yearly road insurance is what one hpde event insurance would have cost. It's hard to imagine the cost being cheaper at the same risk tolerance. At least if you're not renting monthly storage or something.

Ontrack offers yearly policies and for the price the deductible is lower (closer to 5% instead of 10 or 15%) and the price is ~4 events yearly and it covers 12 months of events.  c5 consumables are not exactly cheap either.  I track a c6 so i know the platform very well, tires are $1200, brakes $500 for the two axles and the cars are fast enough to go through those consumables pretty quickly.  

additionally german cars have the benefit of FCP euro for consumables so assuming the pads/rotors you use are readily kept in stock it's a buy once/cry once proposition.  

my yearly running costs on the corvette have been around $1500 to $2000 (insurance = $500, plates = $175, repairs = $1000, maintenance = $200) and track insurance is $170 per event.  

When you add those costs to the annual running costs of my current daily driver you see that while it is more expensive its not crazy more expensive.

I say all of that and admit that every year I consider it and decide to keep my existing setup including the corvette.  

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Your post made me laugh because ironically I am getting a Foxbody Mustang; fortunately it has the SN95 upgrades.

We also aren't planning to hammer on it I like I do the Datsun.

These days a Foxbody is a good track alternative because there is just so much available for them to correct all their flaws.

In reply to Tom1200 :

Apparently one of the real game changers was the Griggs torque arm/Panhard combo that basically turned the back of the car into a Camaro (but don't say that out loud  )  A story I remember vividly was from someone following one of the first torque arm cars, and he watched him casually raise the inside front tire off the ground twice in a corner from acceleration grip.  ("no way could I play with the throttle like that mid corner!")  Combination of low roll center and no more suspension bind.

Tracking an unmodded Fox seemed to be the embodiment of "any suspension will work if you don't let it".  The other thing that really stuck with me was that making the suspension work, for the more pathological track addicts, actually saved money in running costs just from increased tire life.  Something about the clutches in the Trac-lok would last a lot longer too, because they weren't being leaned on so hard for corner exit - the inside rear tire could contribute more.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

Tracking an unmodded Fox seemed to be the embodiment of "any suspension will work if you don't let it".  The other thing that really stuck with me was that making the suspension work, for the more pathological track addicts, actually saved money in running costs just from increased tire life.  Something about the clutches in the Trac-lok would last a lot longer too, because they weren't being leaned on so hard for corner exit - the inside rear tire could contribute more.

It wasn't just the rear suspension that needed help, the front was pretty terrible too.  I remember being astonished that my friends tracking Fox body cars had 6+ degrees of static camber and still wore out the outside edges of front tires in a couple track days compared to what my Miata managed with only 2 degrees.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Due to the weirdness of the leaf spring suspension on the Datsun it eats the inside edge of the rear tires.

I've driven a couple of Foxbody Mustangs on track but as they weren't mine I wasn't trying to light the work on fire. They seemed a very point and squirt car to me; as opposed to the Datsun where one maintains death wish turn in speeds.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

I learned a lot about suspension geometry from watching them try to fix all of the front end problems, by moving the rack as far back as possible to try to gain some Ackerman, raising the roll center to try to match the rear, even playing with brake antidive...

ClearWaterMS said:

theruleslawyer said:

In reply to ClearWaterMS :

The deductible for track insurance on my M4 was close to what I paid for my c5. That's to say nothing of the premiums. Plus newer faster cars have more expensive consumables generally. Yearly road insurance is what one hpde event insurance would have cost. It's hard to imagine the cost being cheaper at the same risk tolerance. At least if you're not renting monthly storage or something.

Ontrack offers yearly policies and for the price the deductible is lower (closer to 5% instead of 10 or 15%) and the price is ~4 events yearly and it covers 12 months of events.  c5 consumables are not exactly cheap either.  I track a c6 so i know the platform very well, tires are $1200, brakes $500 for the two axles and the cars are fast enough to go through those consumables pretty quickly.  

additionally german cars have the benefit of FCP euro for consumables so assuming the pads/rotors you use are readily kept in stock it's a buy once/cry once proposition.  

my yearly running costs on the corvette have been around $1500 to $2000 (insurance = $500, plates = $175, repairs = $1000, maintenance = $200) and track insurance is $170 per event.  

When you add those costs to the annual running costs of my current daily driver you see that while it is more expensive its not crazy more expensive.

I say all of that and admit that every year I consider it and decide to keep my existing setup including the corvette.  

 

I'll have to look at ontrack. I've looked at the yearly track insurance with opentrack before. It's value really depends on how many days you're doing. Opentrack breaks even more like 10 events. Up in Chicago with relatively short track seasons I don't get enough days in to make it work. Ontrack doesn't have a way to quote yearly online from what I can see. Just 6 events.

C5 consumables aren't exactly cheap, but comparable. The pads are cheaper. Tires similar. The car weighs like 500lbs less so I expect it to be a little easier on tires etc. FCP euro is great, but ECS and Pelican have the same deal. ECS had pads in the shape I needed (I have wilwoods) More parts store seem to be trying to get in on the warranty game.

Insurance is about $425 a year, Plates $45 (yea antique plates!) Repairs- Negative value vs putting those track miles on the M4. Track insurance is $165 a weekend if I choose it vs around $400. Parts in general are cheaper too.

Realistically my DD is going to be a cheaper car if I don't need it to do dual duty. I plan on selling the M4. Splitting that sale between two cars leaves me with two that are better suited to purpose. Heck, I might even lose the loan in the process.

theruleslawyer said:

ClearWaterMS said:

theruleslawyer said:

In reply to ClearWaterMS :

The deductible for track insurance on my M4 was close to what I paid for my c5. That's to say nothing of the premiums. Plus newer faster cars have more expensive consumables generally. Yearly road insurance is what one hpde event insurance would have cost. It's hard to imagine the cost being cheaper at the same risk tolerance. At least if you're not renting monthly storage or something.

Ontrack offers yearly policies and for the price the deductible is lower (closer to 5% instead of 10 or 15%) and the price is ~4 events yearly and it covers 12 months of events.  c5 consumables are not exactly cheap either.  I track a c6 so i know the platform very well, tires are $1200, brakes $500 for the two axles and the cars are fast enough to go through those consumables pretty quickly.  

additionally german cars have the benefit of FCP euro for consumables so assuming the pads/rotors you use are readily kept in stock it's a buy once/cry once proposition.  

my yearly running costs on the corvette have been around $1500 to $2000 (insurance = $500, plates = $175, repairs = $1000, maintenance = $200) and track insurance is $170 per event.  

When you add those costs to the annual running costs of my current daily driver you see that while it is more expensive its not crazy more expensive.

I say all of that and admit that every year I consider it and decide to keep my existing setup including the corvette.  

 

I'll have to look at ontrack. I've looked at the yearly track insurance with opentrack before. It's value really depends on how many days you're doing. Opentrack breaks even more like 10 events. Up in Chicago with relatively short track seasons I don't get enough days in to make it work. Ontrack doesn't have a way to quote yearly online from what I can see. Just 6 events.

C5 consumables aren't exactly cheap, but comparable. The pads are cheaper. Tires similar. The car weighs like 500lbs less so I expect it to be a little easier on tires etc. FCP euro is great, but ECS and Pelican have the same deal. ECS had pads in the shape I needed (I have wilwoods) More parts store seem to be trying to get in on the warranty game.

Insurance is about $425 a year, Plates $45 (yea antique plates!) Repairs- Negative value vs putting those track miles on the M4. Track insurance is $165 a weekend if I choose it vs around $400. Parts in general are cheaper too.

Realistically my DD is going to be a cheaper car if I don't need it to do dual duty. I plan on selling the M4. Splitting that sale between two cars leaves me with two that are better suited to purpose. Heck, I might even lose the loan in the process.

i didn't realize you were also in Chicago.  Do you do any SCCA events?  If so we have met, i am the novice coach for TNIA and do registration for the SCCA evening events at autobahn.  I drive a dark red c6 corvette usually in the intermediate group.  

P.S. i may have flipped ontrack /w opentrack in my mind.

The real issue is not buying someone else's problems. That is it in a nutshell. At least, that is my hold up. 
 

Miatas... I have yet to see one that isn't full of water, rusty, beat to death, or priced like gold.  Really doesn't matter which generation either.  
 

Corvettes are honestly too much car for me. I'm not that good of a driver, 350+ hp is just too much. Clutch and transaxle work really requires a lift... My wife doesn't like 'em. 

Porsche... 996, Boxster, or Cayman.. I have yet to read a thread with a happy ending on an inexpensive Porsche. My wife likes these. They terrify me from a repair perspective. 
 

BMW... just too much stupid maintenance stuff. 
 

Ironically, my comfort zone is those crappy old FOX Mustangs... LOL 

ClearWaterMS said:

i didn't realize you were also in Chicago.  Do you do any SCCA events?  If so we have met, i am the novice coach for TNIA and do registration for the SCCA evening events at autobahn.  I drive a dark red c6 corvette usually in the intermediate group.  

P.S. i may have flipped ontrack /w opentrack in my mind.

Occasionally. You probably know my buddy Mark who drives a white c7. He's there all the time. If you were at learning curve last year I had the orange M4. I did mostly bmwcca and revmatch events over the last two years. I'm planning on trying to make a few of the SCCA TT events this year. I don't care much for the SCCA ruleset though. Too easy to get bumped into nasty categories just doing normal track car mods. Look for a torch red c5 "99".

In reply to tester (Forum Supporter) :

C4s have a lot less than 350hp unless you're into spending a lot of money. 

I'd consider a C4 for a track rat.  They're cheap and decent for consumables.

theruleslawyer said:

ClearWaterMS said:

i didn't realize you were also in Chicago.  Do you do any SCCA events?  If so we have met, i am the novice coach for TNIA and do registration for the SCCA evening events at autobahn.  I drive a dark red c6 corvette usually in the intermediate group.  

P.S. i may have flipped ontrack /w opentrack in my mind.

Occasionally. You probably know my buddy Mark who drives a white c7. He's there all the time. If you were at learning curve last year I had the orange M4. I did mostly bmwcca and revmatch events over the last two years. I'm planning on trying to make a few of the SCCA TT events this year. I don't care much for the SCCA ruleset though. Too easy to get bumped into nasty categories just doing normal track car mods. Look for a torch red c5 "99".

white c7?, i know Ted with the white grandsport...  SCCA chicago runs a TT group for our evening events and while you would get classed aggressively the group is pretty small, we rent the timing equipment, post the times and in subsequent sessions organize by fastest lap giving you a rabbit in front to chase.  So if TT is something you want to try in a safe way check out our events.  

In reply to tester (Forum Supporter) :

The friend I am buying the Foxbody  from bought a Boxter. The Porsche needs a few minor things........to the tune of $7500. The cam sensor alone was $900, there other minor things but they are an engine out job.

accordionfolder said:

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

Boy, my old Lotus 7 replica sounds better and better. Two years, half-a-dozen track days and a dozen autocrosses plus a good deal of backroads flogging, and I went through a fuel pump and gas. Okay, I had to replace a couple items when I ran into stuff, but no other consumables. 

Under-appreciated comment right there - With a bit of research and marketplace scouring, one can put together a nice locost7 for fairly cheap, and you can DEFINITELY flat tow/tow dolley one of them w/ a toyota corrolla from the 90's. 

 This absolutely for me. OK, I have more than $15K into my "Locost" Seven, but the performance level/fun for initial cost is tough to beat. The ease of repairs (plan on it with a track car) and most of all, the EXPENDABLES are the true costs. As many have said "like race horses and second wives, it is not the initial cost, it's the upkeep and maintenance costs". I built my car around the expendable items like tires, brakes, and replacement clutch's and motors. I can afford a beer and steak dinner after a track day.