If the E46 is "the newest 3 series that BMW techs say to buy", would the E39 be the 5 series equivalent?
Avoid the 2003-2010 E60/61?
I'm not talking about M cars, but I am thinking about wagons. I'd prefer RWD to iDrive, and would love to have an M/T vs. an automatic, but will probably have to settle for an iDrive/auto around here.
Yes, the E39 is the best of the 5 series (and they're all RWD) along with the E38 for the 7 series (which is basically just an over-grown E39 in most ways). Some of the newer stuff (E60 5 series, E90 3 series) aren't awful, but they're definitely not as good, not as nice to work on, can be a bit more expensive to own, etc. So if you want to go newer, you've really gotta know what you're getting into. The E39 is somewhat maintenance hungry, but not bad to work on and pretty predictable, so it's easy enough to keep one in good shape.
In reply to Woody :
I'd largely agree with what rslifkin had to say about the E39. It is probably the sweet spot when it comes to the 5 series in terms of refinement, quality, driving dynamics and reliability. That said, the other generations have plenty to offer. I've got my E34 525iT (wagon) and an E39 M5, and I would say the cars do feel distinctly different outside of the obvious power disparity. I'd say that the E34 feels much more like a big E30 than a predecessor to the E39. Unfortunately, I've never driven any other 5 series wagons to compare to my car, but it does seem like your requirements will determine what generation you want to focus on.
The E39 is the last of the technology-light 5 series, but it is not without its bug-a-boos, especially the V8 cars; I hate the water-cooled alternators and VANOS repair is a PITA from what I hear, for example. My dad owned a 540i 6MT for 5 years and it had quite a few issues from 80 to 100k miles. I can't recall all of them now, but the water-cooled alternator crapped the bed and was very costly to repair.
I think things are better if you opt for the I6 though. You also get rack and pinion steering vs the recircular ball steering in the V8s, even the M5, so that's another bonus.
The 540i was fun, and made a lot of torques, but when pushed hard it felt heavy and big and the brakes would smoke after even spirited canyon runs. The steering would also get heavy during aggressive driving, almost like a loss of power steering. Never figured out what was going on there.
I have no experience with the E34 other than short drives in a old 525i, and I liked it. If you can find a really nice example of either the E34 or E39 wagon, you might was well buy it as these are probably getting pretty rare.
VANOS units don't really fail on the M62tu V8s (99+ 540i). They get loud and clatter like a diesel at idle once they have enough miles, but they keep working fine even when they're noisy. The timing chain guides do eventually fail though, and that's a big job to do. The water cooled alternator can be a PITA as well, but that's also usually a once in the car's life kind of issue.
For the brakes, my 740 has basically the same brakes as an E39 540. And even with a few hundred extra pounds, I wouldn't say it's under-braked. If you were smoking the brakes that easily I'd blame it on crap pads. Not sure about the E39, but the E38 ducts air right to the front brakes to help keep them cool. I've got far less brake (and even more weight) on the Jeep and with reasonably aggressive (but still streetable) pads I'd really have to work at it to cook those on any public road.
rslifkin said:Yes, the E39 is the best of the 5 series
I don't know that it's necessarily the best one (that depends on what you want out of a car and your definition of the word 'best'), but I agree that from a grassroots point of view it's the newest one you'd want to buy.
In reply to rslifkin :
Thanks for clarifying on the VANOS issue, I think I was conflating it with the chain guides. Certainly could have been crap pads that caused the smoking, or that it was 100 F that day. :D
I would think it would be easier to find a nice E39 wagon than an E34 at this point just due to age.
In reply to CyberEric :
E34 tourings are a bit of a mixed bag in terms of reliability.
Don't get me wrong, I love my E34, but they are not without their issues. The SLS rear suspension can get very expensive to repair very quickly and most owners end up converting to a conventional setup. They also all have a recirculating ball steering, which isn't bad but the ratios are slow.
They only came in two flavors 525i and 530i for North America, and neither was offered with a manual option. Those transmissions aren't exactly known for their longevity, but luckily a manual swap is rather straight forward. Tourings also tend to eat through the rear strut mounts due to the additional weigh on the rear. M50 powered cars are stout, especially the non-Vanos cars, but the cooling system is a concern with any BMW of this era. As mentioned the M60 powered cars have their share of known issues (chain guides, tensioners, OIL LEAKS).
That said a well running E34 touring is a lovely wagon. If I was in the market I'd be looking at an enthusiast owned car with an S50/52 swap in I6 flavor or M60B40/44 for V8 tastes, manual swapped as well of course.
M60s don't have nearly the same chain guide issues the M62s have. They do share the same tendancy to leak oil like it's their job though.
E39s are 15-22 years old now. Any luxury car that age is going to take some sweat equity to keep nice and keep roadworthy.
We bought our 530i used in 2005. For five years it was great for commuting and hauling our small family, but a cooling system failure caused the engine to overheat and seize soon after.
nderwater said:E39s are 15-22 years old now. Any luxury car that age is going to take some sweat equity to keep nice and keep roadworthy. We bought our 530i used. For five years it was great for commuting and for family duty, but a cooling system failure caused the engine to overheat and seize soon after.
And that is why it is recommended that you treat the cooling system as a 100k maintenance item on these cars, and view the interval with the same seriousness you would a timing belt.
They are fine cars - I ran my 525i from 100k to 200k miles, and my buddy ran it for a while after that. I'd recommend you search for a factory MT wagon (which will be 528i or 525i only) - it's a unicorn, and as such likely to have been owned by someone who obsessed over it. That is the kind of previous owner you want with these cars.
I owned both an E39 and E60, both V8 + six speed manual.
I loved both of them and neither had any real issues during my ownership, even though the E39 hit 235k under my care and the E60 hit 150k.
It makes me sad that the E39 and E46 are as old as they are. To me, they are the pinnacle of cars. Luxurious, sporty, and easy/cheap to fix. The E6x started with the need to register a battery to the car with software so that the charging system would know if it had a newer or older battery and adjust the charging to fit. To me that crossed the line in the sand. Doesn't mean I didn't have an E6x, but it's the car that soured me on newer BMW ownership.
Been there, still doing it. Controversial opinion, but I find the E34 to be a more cohesive design over the much loved E39
I’ve had five e39 tourings, they do it for me. They rust, have sensitive cooling systems, sucky stereos and did I mention they rust? Still the end of easy DIY 5 series and parts availability is excellent.
In reply to Woody :
That is how I feel. I’ve had them all and I’d never own another e60. I love the e39s though.
glueguy said:It makes me sad that the E39 and E46 are as old as they are. To me, they are the pinnacle of cars. Luxurious, sporty, and easy/cheap to fix. The E6x started with the need to register a battery to the car with software so that the charging system would know if it had a newer or older battery and adjust the charging to fit. To me that crossed the line in the sand. Doesn't mean I didn't have an E6x, but it's the car that soured me on newer BMW ownership.
Lol, seriously? Battery registration is not a big deal, and it makes the battery last longer. My E90 battery (requires registration also) lasted 8 years and 150k miles, which is longer than any other battery I've messed with. I "registered" the battery with a $20 cable and free software. You can also do it with the Carly phone app and a wireless bluetooth dongle. Or pay the dealership $150 if you're feeling like supporting your local auto dealership.
I don't disagree about the E39 being a great driving car, but I think the naturally aspirated E6x would be on the list of approved BMWs if the interior wasn't so awful. And the E9x cars remind me a lot of E39s in size and general "solid-ness". There is a bit less steering damping in the E39s though.
I think it was the turbo cars that really pissed off techs I think.
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