I'm craving Doritos (or "learn me RX7s" for a rotary newb)

I'm going to apologize in advance, because I'm probably going to be pestering you all with a lot of these threads in the coming months. I've been doing some soul searching of late in regards to my Camaro and have been increasingly of the opinion that it's time to dump it for something new. It's a competent enough car at auto x now that it has decent suspension under it and has been by and large quite reliable, but I just dont feel much passion for or connection to the car. It's just a fantastic engine wrapped with an otherwise mediocre at best car. I want something lighter, livelier, and with lots of soul.

Which brings me to the subject of this thread: rotor curiosity.

Let me start by saying that my experience with rotary engines is precisely nil- never driven, ridden in, or wrenched on one. Yet I feel strangely drawn to them lately. Perhaps because a rotary is about as polar opposite from an American v8 as an engine can be, or perhaps because it's just something I've never done and always wanted to at some point in my life. Plus, all generations of RX are well known for the sort of light and lively, naturally confidence inspiring handling I'm looking for. Practicality isn't a huge concern, I've got the Cherokee for daily beater duty, and this car would primarily be a sunny day driver, auto x, and maybe occasional track day car.

So the question is which RX is right for me. Let's take a quick run through the options:

FD - This is the one I get really, REALLY tight in the pants over, however this is also (probably by far) the path that presents the most perils. Sequential twin turbos, marginal cooling, 100k rebuild intervals, low production volume...but so, so sexy and I don't think I'd be giving up any straight line performance to the Camaro, which I would definitely miss a bit in some of the other choices here. This would be at the top of what I'm willing to spend and would require borrowing some money (not a problem with my CU I don't think), but on the other hand I'm not so sure these are going to be affordable in, say, 5 years. This is also a car I could potentially see myself hanging onto for a bit.

The plan here would call for keeping the car pretty darn close to stock with most mods/wrenching time oriented towards reliability and OCD level maintenance. How does parts cost compare to an FC? And what are the odds of my 6'3 self fitting with a helmet? Thinking non-sunroof would be mandatory.

FC Turbo II - Probably the option I am least familiar with. The FC chassis seems to be cheaper to mod and is definitely more plentiful, but also a good bit older and most examples appear pretty beaten by now. However on the plus side, I hear the FC is much more accommodating to taller drivers. Styling is certainly not as sexy as an FD, but I don't mind it at all either. Clean ones can look darn good.

I could probably get a decent car for about the same money I would get out of the Camaro, so that's a plus. As such, there may be some more tinkering involved with this option as well (not sure if that would wind up being a good thing or bad thing lol). Aside from the complexity of the twin turbo system, are these really any more reliable than an FD? Anyone know of a good buyers guide? Are there any components that are impossible to find at this point?

N/A FC - Much of the above applies, I would guess, with some speed traded for reliability. While not slow, this would clearly be a pretty significant step down from the Camaro in the speed department. How much power can be gotten from an N/A 13b relatively cheaply and reliably? If I soured on the whole rotary thing, I suppose i could also v8 swap and not feel bad about it, as I would doing so to either of the above options. Another nice thing is these are cheap enough to not have to care deeply about messing one up, and would also leave plenty of budget to mod to my liking right off the bat. in either case with the FC, I'm thinking I'd look for a later production car. What would I be looking for to get an LSD and 5 lugs? GTU model?

FB - These are somewhat less appealing to me for no particular reason, but I'll throw the option out there anyways. Seems that nice cars can be found for pretty cheap. What's parts availability like compared to the FC? They're mostly carbureted too, yes? Carbs (well, automotive anyways, had more motorcycle carbs apart than I care to recall) are somewhat foreign to me and the thought of diagnosing issues there along with unfamiliar rotary problems has me a bit worried. What is the handling/feel like compared to the FC? Power potential of the 12a vs 13b?

This is all very much at the theoretical stage at this point - not yet ready to actually start shopping until the Camaro is sold, which will likely be a couple months.

Details on the Camaro? I've been wanting to try out something American and V8-powered...

In reply to szeis4cookie:

It's a 98 Z28 LS1 6 speed, black exterior, tan interior, t tops, 104,xxx miles. Has Koni shocks, Strano springs, UMI 35mm solid front sway bar, 23mm solid rear bar off a 3rd gen, MGW short throw shifter, Flowmaster cat back, SLP air box lid, Turn 1 ps pump with ps cooler...think that's it lol. All mods but the catback done by me. Exterior is nice as hell, interior has some flaws - one small crack in the dash, power window switch pops out of it's place, drivers seat badly torn, passenger seat less so. Rear seat currently removed, but I have it. Has OEM C5 Z06 speed lines, front tires are brand spankin new Conti extremecontact DW, rear are kind of old BFG KDWs but have tread. Also has the stock Z28 16s with E36 M3ty tires, and stock firebird 16s with slightly less E36 M3ty tires.

While I have owned an FD, it's only been for a couple weeks now, and I don't actually have possession of it yet. :)

If it's the rotary specifically that's interesting, rather than the rx7, you might consider an rx8. They're less expensive than an FD, and since they're newer it's a lot easier to find one in good condition. Not as light and certainly not as pretty, but...

AFAIK the only fuel injected FB was the 84-85 GSL-SE. They're pretty rare these days, because they tend to be the FB that everyone wants. Note that the FB rear suspension is a bit crude by modern standards.

Also, forgot the RX8. Can be had CHEAP, much newer so less age related issues to worry about, probably most competent chassis right out of the box, but the lifespan of a Renesis doesn't seem much better than a turbo 13b, if a bit lower maintenance. These just don't do as much for me emotionally, and the practicality benefits aren't of much concern in this circumstance, but perhaps a test drive could convince me otherwise.

In reply to codrus:

Yea, we were chatting a bit in your FD thread...perhaps I could make the delivery for you, gets the car to you and I get an extended test drive . I mean, I am currently in NC with the week off...Kidding (mostly, if not for the gf I might be serious lol)

The FB is stick axle right? Actually forgot about that until your comment on crude rear suspension.

Wrote my RX8 post before seeing yours, and yes that is in many ways the logical option. They just don't do anything for me on paper or to look at. Like I said, might be a different story behind the wheel.

Yeah, for me the sweet spot was the FC Turbo II, since the FD has never really been cheap to acquire. The n/a 2nd generation cars just aren't quick enough IMO. I've had my T2 for nearly 15 years now and it's holding up very well, but it really doesn't get driven a lot.

Given that you're coming out of a Camaro with an LS-1 and a 6-speed, I'd recommend a rotary with a turbo. Anything without is going to feel like it's propelled by small rodents on an exercise wheel.

Furious_E wrote: Yea, we were chatting a bit in your FD thread...perhaps I could make the delivery for you, gets the car to you and I get an extended test drive . I mean, I am currently in NC with the week off...Kidding (mostly, if not for the gf I might be serious lol) The FB is stick axle right? Actually forgot about that until your comment on crude rear suspension. Wrote my RX8 post before seeing yours, and yes that is in many ways the logical option. They just don't do anything for me on paper or to look at. Like I said, might be a different story behind the wheel.

Thanks for the offer, but... :)

Yes, the FB is a live rear axle, and I have read that the 2 sets of arms run in conflicting arcs, so once it compresses to a certain level it tends to bind and produce undesirable handling characteristics. I've seen pictures of various aftermarket setups for it but I have no idea how well they work..

I really really wanted to like the rx8 when it came out, and handling/ergonmics-wise I do. It drives like a contemporary Mazda should, it's dynamic, responsive, and the controls are all in the right places. I was considering one in place of an Audi S4, but the torque curve, too-small back seat, and exterior styling hurt it too much in that comparison. IMHO, Mazda should have skipped the rear seats/suicide doors and called it an FE rx7 -- losing a few hundred pounds of weight would have helped the torque complaints a lot.

I would be concerned with headroom in any stock seat fc. If you are okay with an aftermarket seat mounted in sliders on the fllor, it will gain you 2 inches.

It is cheap and easy to convert an na to a turbo. I did mine for 1200$.

I am partial to the early 2nd gens. The s4 seem simpler and I know them well. The s5 has a nicer interior but has the auto seatbelts on tracks.....

The s4 are cheaper.

To get 5 bolt and lsd s4:

Gxl (luxury model)

Sport

Turbo ok

Gtu

For s5:

Turbo ii

Gxl

GTUs

The regular s5 gtu is the base model. The s is important.

The gtus has a different rearend ratio, bigger wheels and the turbo suspension.

The s4 gtu, sport, and gxl all have the big brakes,lsd, and a 4.1 rear gear if manual. The autos got 3.9.

The S.A. and fb have a watts link rear end. It works pretty well stock. The recirculating ball steering doesn't feel as good as rack and pinion.

I have an S.A. and an fc as racecars. The fc is fadter in a straight line. The sa is faster mid corner. Both fun. The S.A. feels like a big gokart. The fc feels like a quick gt car.

Hopefully nonack and whats his name with the Bridgeport symbol for his avatar shows up...

Knurled.... thats his name!

If you feel like a roadtrip, you can sit in my stock fc, race fc, and race sa.

I'm near Pittsburgh pa. I can show you the differences too.

Well, you can drive the stock fc na also...

In reply to codrus:

Yea I don't blame you, that's way too epic of a road trip to pass up. You need to do it and post lots of words and pics so we can all live vicariously through you.

So the FB is a fox body 'stang with no torque ? Kidding, mostly.

Agreed 100% on what the RX8 should have been. If I were looking at this car as more of a dd/practical car I might give it stronger consideration. But then again, mid teens mpgs and 100k mile expected rebuild intervals don't exactly work in its favor. I'm willing to deal with crap like that in something like an fd, but the rx8 is just a bit too homely to pull the high maintenance card.

In reply to 1988RedT2:

I'm curious to hear more about your ownership experience with the Turbo 2. How many miles, what's your usage like, what's gone wrong, ect? I tend to agree that going from an LS1 to an NA rotary will likely be a letdown in many respects and I kind of worry that the stupid Camaro has kind of ruined slow cars for me in general. I actually think something slower would generally be better for my development as a driver, which has a long ways to go, but I don't think would be nearly as enjoyable 95% of the time. Knew I should have just bought a Miata instead.

In reply to wvumtnbkr:

Interesting note on the headroom, the FC seems to be commonly mentioned as a recommendation for taller drivers. Racing seat would be no problem though if that's what it took.

Is the $1200 just the engine swap? Same tranny and diff between the Na and turbo?

Steering feel is one of my major quips with the Cramit. For reference, I had an e36 prior to that and one of the major reasons I am looking to move on is I've never remotely approached the level of comfort and confidence I had with my Bimmer in the Cramit. I think the whole feel/feedback thing is a big part of that, so that's a bit of a strike against the FB but not enough to write it off without actually driving one.

I may very well take you up on that offer too, especially since the gf's family lives out your way anyhow.

What I really wanna hear is some real world feedback on living with an fd...

7 years ago I went from a 300hp TII FC (owned for 8 years) to a stock RX-8. I'd seriously urge you to consider the RX-8. They have an incredible handling feel. All RX-7s are quite old now.

Furious_E wrote: What I really wanna hear is some real world feedback on living with an fd...

What are you budgeting for an FD? A good one is $18K+, and it took me 6 months to find the one I bought. There were three others I got close to buying that timeframe, but I missed one by an hour, a second one got sold to a friend as negotiations got serious, and a third the guy decided to keep it. I was specifically looking for low miles and stock, though.

Snrub wrote: 7 years ago I went from a 300hp TII FC (owned for 8 years) to a stock RX-8. I'd seriously urge you to consider the RX-8. They have an incredible handling feel. All RX-7s are quite old now.

Certainly not writing it off yet. What I'm really looking for is something that draws me in and connects with me in a way the Camaro never has. The e36 did that and I still miss it dearly from time to time. The rx8, from a total outsider's perspective, doesn't hold that appeal to me but I could certainly see myself changing my tune from behind the wheel.

codrus wrote:

Furious_E wrote: What I really wanna hear is some real world feedback on living with an fd...

What are you budgeting for an FD? A good one is $18K+, and it took me 6 months to find the one I bought. There were three others I got close to buying that timeframe, but I missed one by an hour, a second one got sold to a friend as negotiations got serious, and a third the guy decided to keep it. I was specifically looking for low miles and stock, though.

$15-18k is what I'm figuring for a decent one. More than I would pay for a lot of cars in my current position, but also something could see myself hanging onto for quite some time and it wouldn't kill me financially. Definitely the biggest "stretch car" of what I'm considering though (which goes well beyond the cars mentioned here, although I'm trying to keep this thread rotary focused.)

Doesn't necessarily have to be the most pristine example, as long as it doesn't show signs of being an immediate money pit. That's what concerns me most about the fd; I know they're more maintenance intensive than the average car, but something I end up having to dump a grand a month into wouldn't get driven.

Hi Furious,

I’ve put 286,000 miles on my N/A FC and 231,000 miles on my S1 FE.

Taking everything you’ve said into consideration, here’s my lineup of rotary suitability in descending order:

FC Turbo II – Good handling, torque, esthetics, and headroom – fair longevity, buy-in, & operational costs.

FD – Brilliant handling & esthetics - good torque – poor longevity - high buy-in & operational costs

FE – Brilliant handling – fair torque & buy-in - poor esthetics & longevity – high operational costs

FC N/A – Brilliant longevity - Good handling, esthetics, headroom, buy-in, and operational costs – fair torque

FB – Brilliant longevity – good buy-in & operational costs – fair esthetics – poor handling, torque, & headroom.

I DD’d my FE for nine years on an 86 mile commute and it only left me stranded once so it very much is a real car that can be trusted.

It’s just that you’ve got to budget $6,000 every 120,000 miles or so to rebuild the engine. This makes its total cost of ownership pretty comparable to a 3 Series BMW. IMHO, although the FE is more engaging to drive than a 3 series, it’s just so damn goofy looking that, given equal money, I’d rather have a BMW. BTW, I averaged 21.4 MPG in my FE but that was with 90% freeway driving and only flogging it occasionally.

Bottom line, I totally appreciate your lack of passion for the FE but it would provide an amazing contrast to your Camaro, offer a painless buy-in, and if you get a decent one, you might be able to have your fling with the magic spinning triangles and get out before it needs a new engine.

I have owned and been running time trials in an NA FC since 2006. Other than the first 2 seasons running junkyard engines it has been basically bulletproof. All rotaries have an little issue with heat, the best way to deal with it is proactively. Get a good radiator keep the coolant fresh and make sure you never let it get too hot. I got 5 years out of my first rebuild and am about to enter into my 4th season on the second rebuild this year. The rebuilds cost me $1500, $750 for the parts and $750 for the labor. It is supposed to be pretty easy to do your self but I am not that confident in my mechanical abilities and I certainly couldn't get it done as quickly as the expert. I had the engine built for longevity but you can do some serious mods and they are still relatively relaible. They love to rev, I think mine actually likes to get beat on, I have it up around 7k frequently and sometimes more. They handle very well, I have a slightly modified suspension, coilovers with adjustable shocks, I have the 5 lug hubs with the 4 pot front brakes and have been running Hawk brake pads but may upgrade this season. They are about the same speed as a Miata, maybe a little faster depending the which series Miata you compare to. I can hang with most any car in the corners but anything with HP just runs away on the straights. I have been wanting to get a quicker car for the past few seasons but I usually talk myself out of it for a couple of reasons, first I haven't learned how to drive better than the RX7 can handle and the faster cars I crave have much higher consumables. I usually get to 5 or 6 events per season and can get a season and an event or two out of a set of pads and rotors, usually eat up two sets of new SM 7's and two sets of used SM 7's (about 700 -800 track miles) per year. I know people that run E36s that munch tires in a few events and the Vette guys get excited if their brakes and tires make it through a weekend. I havent driven mine on the street other than when I first got it but I would like to have one as a weekend car to go play in. Interior design is an issue. I am only 5'10" and had an issue with seat height with a helmet on. I had a Corbeau in my original car , (it met a wall last year) and I had to mount the seat to the floor. For the new car I got an Ultrashield and was able to mount that on the factory sliders. The passenger compartment is very compact, a friend has a 944 and as much as they are the same size body wise the interior is tiny in comparison. I too love the looks of the FD but I could never track one as I couldn't bear the thought of crashing it, after all the safety and performance mods I figure I am into my FC for around 6000, between the buy in and mods to an FD I think you would be looking at well over 20. For a street/AX car I would choose an FD, if you want to track it regularly go with an FC you can blow it up, crash it, etc a few times for the price of one FD. If you get bored with the spinning triangles in the FC, you can get an LSxx kit and you have your torque back. I may or maynot have 1 or 2 FCs for sale if you find yourself needing one....

I've owned one of each generation RX7 (all with turbos) and I now own an RX8.

My preferred generation RX7 would be an FD, but those are not exactly cheap to run and maintain. They're also rather cramped inside - I didn't mind that, but at 5'11" I wouldn't have been able to wear a helmet in it. That said, on the West Coast I'd budget $20k for a nice one. Unless you find one that's been owned by someone who really understands rotaries you don't want a modded one either, they're very easy to blow up if you haven't got a clue what you're doing.

Nice FCs are going up in price, there are a lot of not-so-nice ones around but as usual with older Japanese cars parts are getting harder to find and you really want the nicest you can find.

All of the above is why I ended up with an RX8. They don't have as much power potential as the FD (unless you stick an FD engine in one), but they handle extremely well and are fast enough to be entertaining. If you need big power I wouldn't necessarily buy one but if you don't mind leaving the driveline stock (with the possible exception of a silenced mid pipe for track use unless you enjoy melting the cat) and concentrate on the handling, I think they're a good choice.

That, or wait another year or so and see if you can import a nice early FD from Japan. They're not that easy to find over there anymore either, though.

Take the LS/T56 from the Camaro and drop it in an RX-8. Done.

(Someone had to say it!)

Furious_E wrote: What I really wanna hear is some real world feedback on living with an fd...

I've had my FD for about 10 years now. There are far too many things to cover in a single post or that I'm likely to remember so here are some bullet points off the top of my head.

• Lots of poorly modified cars out there. You might be able to pick one up cheap but you'll have to go over everything / undo bad mods, etc.

• Some of the bad rap these cars got are due to the above. They are capable of big power with the proper supporting mods and tuning. Conversely, they are capable of blowing up with poor modifications and tuning which seems to have been the case with a lot of owners, especially once they became affordable used.

• Heat cooks the engine wiring, vacuum lines, solenoids, etc. These must be replaced. A lot of folks ended up ditching the sequential twins because they thought it'd be more difficult to diagnose problems with the factory control systems than just replacing everything with non-sequential or single turbo. See bullet above.

• The stock ECU is very limited in what you can do, upgrade wise. Budget about $600-1000 for a plug-and-play stand-alone EMS.

• They can take pretty big tires in stock configuration. 285s can fit without rubbing.

• Built to a budget and with low weight in mind + 90s interior = brittle plastics, parts can be expensive to replace.

• Strong aftermarket, new products still coming out.

• Competent/honest shops/builders are few and far between. The more you plan to do yourself the better. Everything you might want to do is well-documented online at this point.

• Interior ergonomics are what they are. Either you fit or you don't. Steering wheel isn't adjustable. Sunroof models may present issues with helmet clearance when using stock seats.

• Track prep for a stock car on a hot summer day: pads, fluids, baffled oil filler neck, '95 style PCV + catch can, dual oil coolers, maybe aftermarket radiator and intercooler. The more power you make, the more cooling you'll want. 40% of the engine cooling is via the oil.

• Stock twin turbos run 10 psi. They are only good up to 13-14 psi and that's pushing them. Plenty of upgrade options are available but not cheap when factoring in supporting mods. I still run stock sequential turbos at stock boost for reliability/longevity.

• There are metal spherical bearings in the rear suspension instead of bushings. These are wear items and will need to be replaced after 50k+ miles at a cost of about $3-400. There are aftermarket replacements available but I have not tried them yet.

If you have any other specific questions I'll try and answer them. If you're ever in the DC/NoVA area you're welcomed to take mine for a spin.

I would get a Series 2 RX-8 and see how you like it. The S2 has better gearing for more accessible power down low and it has an additional oiling port in the motor which is said to help longevity. You can find low mileage Sport package versions for around $10k. If you can find one without a sunroof, go for that one as the sunroof intrudes quite a bit into the cabin headroom.

SVreX wrote: Take the LS/T56 from the Camaro and drop it in an RX-8. Done. (Someone had to say it!)

Ha, i've definitely wished on more than one occasion that someone would just plow into the damn thing and total it (sparing me and the drivetrain from serious injury, of course.) It's nice enough, aside from the driver's seat and general fourth gen camaro-ness, that I would feel bad butchering it otherwise, though. By far the cleanest car underneath I've ever owned.

With the FE much like anything else buy the newest you can afford, my S2 has not given any issues, just be sure on any RENESIS keep up on the ignition coils and plugs.

Definitely suggest at least giving it a try.