Is it time to say goodbye to the manual transmission?

In reply to Berck :

The new Forte doesn't have any hill assist that I've found. But if the hill is that bad, I have a manual parking brake right next to the shifter. I have learned I can hyper-mile a manual way better than an auto. 

This would probably be a good time to mention that the inner me thinks H pattern manuals are an abomination for race cars. 

I started on motorcycles first and the inner me truly thinks the sequential shifting is far better for racing BUT the outer me thinks the H pattern box is better on the street because I can go from top gear to first in one motion without having to go down through every gear................this is handy when pulling up to red lights.

If anyone finds this illogical..............logic has no place in these decisions. LOL

In reply to Berck :

I never roll back either, or use the hand brake, just ride the clutch a bit. And before anybody jumps on me for riding it, I have 149,000 miles on the original clutch and it's working fine. The car will rust out before the clutch gives up.

Drive a car on the track or any situation where not being in the right gear at the right time ruins the experience/lap time/fun.  You ran out of fingers and toes pretty quickly didn't you?  This is the defining attribute of a manual gearbox. Driver involvement/enjoyment is a byproduct. 

Chris_V said:

bobzilla said:

In reply to ChrisTropea :

Not just fun factor but longevity as well. The Forte GT comes with the 7-spd DCT. It's faster. But it's more fragile, which is the case in a lot of these. Manual transmissions are rarely fragile (except Subaru... we're lookign at you WRX) and will hold up for hundreds of thousands of miles with a simple fluid change every few years. Show me an auto that you can replace 2.5 qyarts of fluid once every 100k and it lasts for 300k miles. I am sure there are a few examples but they are the exception and not the rule. 

Just had to replace the clutch and dual mass flywheel in my JCW MINI. A wear item. I don't have the ability to put it up on a lift, remove the subframe and suspension to drop the trans and get to the clutch and flywheel. So a $5k bill at a good indy shop.

My '01 740i Sport had 178k on it when I sold it and still had the lifetime fluid in the trans. 20 years old at that point.

$5000 to replace the clutch on a MINI?  You really paid that?  I'm sorry, but even at my corner garage, that's barely a $2000 job (I've asked and they work on a lot of MINIs so I'd trust them).  By a friend in SE PA in his garage who is a former MINI tech - under $1000 (w/ owner-supplied parts) - since he's done so many of them he can do them in a fraction of the book time and charges accordingly.  He's also done clutch replacements in hotel/condo parking lots at the Dragon. Multiple times... I would prefer to do the job with a lift (and have), but for him it's a luxury. 

I have to drive in snow once in awhile and because of that, I would prefer all of my cars have manuals. I absolutely detest driving an automatic in snow.  I have similar opinions about traction control - I want the car to slide when I expect it to, not when physics finally overrides the computer, which makes things unpredictable.   

Even my modern minivan would be better with a manual, although I accept it being an automatic since I mainly use it for mtn biking and I've had rides end with me not able to easily drive a manual transmission... 

z31maniac - If I had some place to park the car, I'd be very tempted to buy a new MX-5 right now, partly just to add to the manual-purchase numbers...  Part of me wants a new MINI Clubman, but the option packages irk me to the point where I don't want what the packages force me to buy.   If I'm spending nearly $50K for a car, it better be exactly what I want.  It's also not clear if the 6 spd manual shown in "standard features" is actually what you get with the car.  After you "build" one, the only transmission shown is the 7 spd DCT. 

Granted, the main reason I don't buy either is I simply have no need for the car. I barely drive the toy cars I have now and adding a new one isn't going to change that. The last thing I need to do is add another one that has a purchase exceeding all six of my current toy vehicles put together.  Along with the added insurance cost - one reason I have my 2006 MINI is Hagerty will insure it on my classic car policy with the rest of my old-car fleet.

For the record, I have long been a fan of the manual box. We’re currently 4/4 on manuals here. (I think it’s okay to have different viewpoints. I don’t think it’s okay to disrespect each other.)

When the Porsche PDK came out, I recall a certain famed, handsome face long associated with the brand telling me that he had one on order and didn’t plan to go back to manuals for his daily drivers. That told me a lot about the future. 

bobzilla said:

In reply to z31maniac :

Had both, I drive a FWD better. Doesn't make sense considering all teh time I spent on gravel roads with cop cars and pickups but thats the way it is.

I'm the same way. My ego wants to drive a RWD car in anger. My skills (or lack thereof) say I'm better in a FWD car. At least this is what my meager autocross results have proven. 

I do own a couple of automatics (my two vans).  My ex- has 6 cars and every one of them has a manual transmission. She bought her Golf Alltrack wagon a few years ago mainly because is was a manual.  She has put her money where her mouth is as three of her cars were bought new (the other three are classics).  If you want to experience a screaming rant, tell her she should buy an automatic - but warn me first so I can watch (from a distance).   I'm sure she will eventually cave in and get an automatic, but she'll do it kicking and complaining...  it'll probably be when she gets an EV (something she hates even more than automatics).

In reply to David S. Wallens :

PDK's and DCT's are fun and absolutely faster. But they do distance the driver away from whats going on a little (or lot, depending on who's). I am at a point that I want to be as connected as I can and enjoy the effort of being the one in charge (sure, it's purely in my own mind and not reality but we've already shown here we don't let that affect us). Cheaper maintenance as well doesn't hurt a cheapskate like me. 

I really hope I never see the day that we completely lose the manual transmission in cars. I love every chance I get to drive a car with a manual transmission because it truly does connect you to that car and the driving experience more than any automatic transmission car could. For pure fun factor, it’s hard to beat the driving experience you get in a Miata with a manual transmission on a twisty backroad. But we have to acknowledge how far automatic transmissions have come in terms of outright performance on the track.

David S. Wallens said:

For the record, I have long been a fan of the manual box. We’re currently 4/4 on manuals here. (I think it’s okay to have different viewpoints. I don’t think it’s okay to disrespect each other.)

When the Porsche PDK came out, I recall a certain famed, handsome face long associated with the brand telling me that he had one on order and didn’t plan to go back to manuals for his daily drivers. That told me a lot about the future. 

So I was born a contrary child and will counter the future with this:

Vintage racing is seeing a rapid rate of growth. I think enthusiast really like cars without all the bells and whistles, hence the rise in popularity. 

The manual maybe more work for less speed but I enjoy that more.......faster lap times for the sake of faster lap times is meaningless to me. I'm never going to be World Champion and so I'm driving for the joy it brings me.  "Joy" is highly personalized thing.

As for respect: modern society has devolved to the point where opposing views are often thought of as not worthy of respect.  Calling them out as wrong headed by way of insults is not disrespectful because that particular view by it's very nature isn't capable of garnering respect.

For example I don't use the word Nazi to describe an overbearing person; when I was a kid in Brooklyn our land lady was a Holocaust survivor, she was the most gracious human being one would ever meet, for me using the word Nazi so freely dilutes the pain and horror she experienced. Modern society is such that this thought probably has never occurred to people using the word to describe the overbearing and/or overly opinionated.

Sadly this is where many folks are at. 

Maybe in very small doses, but I think we are seeing something of a shift back to the “experience,” however you’d like to define it:  

Vinyl over digital music.

Film over digital cameras. 

Paper over digital media. 

I’m sure others could be added to the list. (Home gardens over buying produce at the grocery store?)

Could we see that with the manual transmission? A two-pedal option might be better/faster/more whatever, but at what cost to the experience? 

The Recon household is evenly split at this point in time, with two manual equipped vehicles and two automatic equipped vehicles. I've had the opportunity over the last month or so to daily a mini-truck equipped with exactly zero driver improvement options. No power steering, manual door locks and windows, manual transmission, 2wd. (It does have a vacuum booster on the brakes, but no ABS)

I'm having more fun than I've had in years, because the truck just does its thing. 

Sometimes, simple does a great job because it's simple.

Edit to add- I think we are reaching a point in technological advancement where poor driving is rewarded by more and more ever present driver "aids" to keep people "safer". I believe this is resulting in a much poorer quality of motor vehicle operator. 

Say what you like about old tech, but it certainly rewards competence.

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

I am sure that there are people who swear that filling their icebox with cubes of ice is better than plugging in a refrigerator, and storing vinyl records in a cool, dry place is better than digital downloads, and riding a horse to work is more engaging than driving a car...but they are outliers. They enjoy nostalgia and the good old days, and don't mind missing out on the convenience and superiority of modern technology.  Nothing wrong with that, I enjoy riding a horse or going for a sail sometimes, but I don't want to get to work that way. And I don't want to hit the track or the autocross course without the benefits that my DSG provides.  I don't have to think about upshifting or downshifting, I never accidentally money-shift or pop out of gear, and shifts are faster and smoother. Plus, if I do want to grab a gear manually, I can do that. So for me, a DSG is the obvious choice for a DD or track toy or whatever. 

Don't get me wrong, I drove manuals for many, many years and I still love the interface of driving one, always will. To me, driving a manual on a back road is as enjoyable as anything can be. There is something very satisfying to me about being able to drive a stick, especially at speed. I hope that manual transmissions remain an option for enthusiasts who want them, but most likely they will be available on limited-production models at higher prices (think Porsche) or niche cars trying to set themselves apart (BRz) or on older cars. I hope that I have enough disposable income to keep a manual in the fleet for the occasional drive, just like some people want to have a horse, or a sailboat, or a horse-drawn wagon.  

 

 

 

 

You missed calling us Luddites.

Okay read most all of the posts and the bottom line for me, with a house full of drivers, is  my little manual fun car is ALWAYS parked where I left it and full of gas, wife's automatic can't be found and if I do has just enough gas to get to the station. So yes manuals are king plus just an awful lot more fun to drive.

In reply to racerfink :

Luddite. 

In reply to Recon1342 :

I agree with you on the safe driver aspect. I see it in my wife more and more. The car tells her when the car in front is pulling away, or there's a car in her blindspot, or is stopping in front of her to the point she is distracted fixing a broken nail, looking for a gift card, or any other myriad of stupid things to not do while driving. When she gets behind the wheel of the Forte or Rio? All of that stops. She is engaged. Even though the Forte actually has MORE nannies, because she has to concetrate on shifting and driving the distractions are gone and she is 10 times more focused on the road. 

Hmm, someone mentioned "riding a horse to work"...suddenly I'm remembering an episode of Speed Racer called "The Car Hater." 

"Fragility" of transmissions has been mentioned.

As another data point, VW clutches in their manual transmissions are among the first thing that the cognoscenti advise as an upgrade when tuning and/or going to a larger turbo because they just don't last.

Whereas the DQ381 (the DSG in my GTi) is from the Golf R and rated to handle up to 317 lb-ft of torque.  The older DQ250 was rated for 295 lb-ft, which covered just about any stage 1 tune.

source:  https://blog.fcpeuro.com/the-definitive-guide-to-the-dsg-transmission

Berck said:

 And I vote with my wallet--the manual transmission is why I tow my race cars with a Tacoma instead of a Tundra.

I just got off the phone placing a deposit on a '23 Tacoma MT. It is used, but barely. Most of my towing in the near future will be go-karts, but eventually I'll get to towing my Elise, so the plan is use to the Tacoma for all that. I have put probably 250,000 miles on manuals in the last 13 years since I last owned an automatic, and that's also living in the DC area for a large chunk of that. With no false machismo whatsoever, I have just gotten so used to it that I don't give it much thought. There's just nothing to gain by giving up shifting, and I'd like to think I'd be happier picking my own gears correctly than having a 10spd automatic constantly try to guess what gear to be in (looking at you, Ranger). If you google complaints about the 3rd gen Tacoma, transmission calibration is probably #1. Well, "cramped interior" is up there, but come on people, it is supposed to be smaller than a Tundra. That's the point...

I very well may wish I had an auto after enough towing with the Tacoma, but I'd rather learn 'the hard way' while supplying manufacturers whatever incentive I can to keep producing manual options. Even buying used helps resale value, and I think manufacturers are taking notice how strong niche secondhand markets can actually be. Still, I'd consider new if I could, but they aren't even offering new orders in actual colors. Just two different grays and a white (orange and nuclear pee green are unavailable). My wife has a very strong chromatic-cars-only policy, and I tend to agree with her on that. 

Tom1200 said:

I started on motorcycles first and the inner me truly thinks the sequential shifting is far better for racing BUT the outer me thinks the H pattern box is better on the street because I can go from top gear to first in one motion without having to go down through every gear................this is handy when pulling up to red lights.

If anyone finds this illogical..............logic has no place in these decisions. LOL

I race a Formula Vee, so I've got the best of both worlds.  It's an H shifter, but only 3rd and 4th are usable on track, so consider it a 2-speed sequential gearbox!  You don't even need the clutch if you're good with your right foot, timing, and don't mind paying for excessive transaxle rebuilds:)

I really don't know how anyone driving for fun says they bought the DCT option because it's tenths of a second quicker around a track.  They're generally not racing which means your goal at the track is to (1) have fun, and (2) drive faster than you did before.  Seems like the DCT doesn't help much with (1) and is irrelevant for (2).

But, what do I know?  I race a Formula Vee and think that driving my "fast" car (Focus RS) on the track is downright boring, so presumably the DCT advantage is for someone else.

If I can find it, there's a MT YouTube episode of Randy Pobst at Laguna Seca with a manual and 10spd auto 1LE Camaro.  Randy was faster in the manual.

I also recall Hans Stuck telling a story during some IMSA race in the 80's where he ran a lap quicker than the computer models said he should be able to drive.  The engineers stayed up all night going over the data, and by morning, they had their answer.  They told Hans he should be lifting at the kink instead of flat out, that the computer says there is not enough downforce to go flat out.

Being a truck mechanic I've had lots of experience with gear jamming. There is a lot of satisfaction in getting thru the gears cleanly. I autocross a 2012 Boss 302, a lot of the courses I rarely have to shift, light up the tires in first, slide it into second as I break the timing lights and we are off. Occasionally the Miata Mafia incorporates some extremely tight Costco parking lot on XMAS eve elements that require a downshift into 1st followed by a return to 2nd gear. Very satisfying to get thru the element without hitting a cone, getting the braking done correctly and  not botching either gear change.

The best was a recent event run by the local Vette club. Their courses are generally faster but still having a few slow elements to keep us safe. This particular event required the use of 3rd gear in two spots and man was this fun. I placed 6th as a driver and 5th as a car. 1st was a C8 Vette, 2.3 seconds faster then me. 2nd, a Z07, 3rd a Z06, 4th & 5th.... a pesky two driver Civic R, both drivers a hair faster then me. That was a very satisfying day.

I had a 2008 GTI with the DSG, very fun, wish I still had it. Being an old timer I rarely used the paddle shifts, growing up driving manuals I had a hard time remembering which paddle did what when I had  the wheel cranked halfway around going thru a corner, I'd reach over to shift it manually but I don't remember is it forward to downshift or do you pull it to the rear? Why the confusion? Well my other dailly driver, a Fusion Sport, the manual mode upshifts and downshifts are in the opposite directions than the VW GTI.

Lastly torque converter transmissions seem to be a bitch to keep cool when tracking them. I'm fine with all are transmission options, my truck has a 10 speed and is wonderful for towing the 9000 lb RV. As someone else mention my bikes are sequentials but are a pain when you need to get to neutral fast. I have no qualms about tearing into a clutch job or pulling apart a manual trans. Automatics, to many special tools, weird stuff.

Final comment, VW, what were you thinking when you came up with the stupid oil level check procedure on the DSG in the 2008 VW GTI? I'm guessing its similar on other VW GTI's. Trans hot, put on lift, pull center plug of standpipe drain plug and see if any oil comes out, no oil comes out, pump some oil in until oil comes out, let excess oil you just pumped in drain out completely and then reinsert plug, lower lift, pay service dept $200.00 and GO AWAY.

Yea, the VW service dept was a real treat.

In reply to cyow5 :

The real answer is to tow the karts with the Elise.*

(mic drop)
 

*said no one ever

In reply to cyow5 :

Nice. I think you'll be happy with it given that you understand the compromises when you bought it.  It would be nice if it made more power low in the rpm band like a truck, but when you accept that all the power is over 3,600rpm where (I guess) the variable valve timing kicks in, it's fine.  After you get used to the load you're towing, you can time the downshifts at the bottom of the hill, maintain speed and be way smoother than a slushbox ever is.  I tow an E30 rally car on an open trailer across Colorado and it does just fine.  6th gear is useless except for flat terrain, and don't be afraid of wringing it out in 3rd.  I did need to buy one of these to avoid completely roasting the clutch while reversing with a trailer.  I also added airbags because the suspension isn't well-optimized for max payload + 3,000lb of trailer.  Yes, I'm sure a big truck with a giant engine would make it easier, but I prefer to drive the smallest vehicle that'll get the job done, and 6,500lbs of towing capacity is plenty for getting the car to the track.

Berck said:

I race a Formula Vee, so I've got the best of both worlds.  It's an H shifter, but only 3rd and 4th are usable on track, so consider it a 2-speed sequential gearbox!  

 

My first single seat race car was a Beach Formula Vee; I remember the 2 speed sequential box well. In fact the car slowed faster than the motor revved down, so you could simple slot it from 4th to 3rd at the precise moment........no blipping the throttle needed. 

As an aside I once climber right out of my D-sports racer and into a friend's vintage vee and nearly crashed it straight away.  Despite doing 30 mph less at the end of the front stretch the braking point was probably 100ft sooner, what I thought was a conservative braking point in the formula vee was probably 20 ft past the "Oh My God" brake marker for the car. Fortunately you can chuck them sideways and scrub of tons of speed..........I barely kept on track.........they are hugely fun cars. I've often thought about getting a pair of them for my son and I to vintage race.