Jeep "Call of Duty Special Ops Edition" ...

Vigo wrote:

my old, crappy XJ that was tons of fun off-road and to wrench on.... but really the worst on-road vehicle I've ever owned. Only marginally safe to other drivers, and that's when it was in good shape :) I loved owning it for some reason, but every time I drove it to work or something, I always thought "why the berkeley do I drive this thing" lol...

I AM SHOCKED! There is someone on this forum besides me who calls it straight regarding the cherokee! The damn thing is practically a deathtrap! Considered in a certain context, they are fantastic, and im a fellow XJ lover (had 3). But when i see people on car forums disagreeing that the cherokee has tiny brakes and is ridiculously unstable, it makes me wonder if they really DO own the sports cars they claim to..

I have no idea what you guys are talking about. We used our 99 XJ as a DD for 100k+ miles and it was no deathtrap and actually a pretty good DD......and yes I do own all the sports cars in my profile, but when I drive my Jeep I don't expect it to handle and brake like a Porsche. We also used it to camp, tow my dirt biles, winch Hondas out of ditches in the winter etc. Hell I just pulled it out of retirement for winter duty this weekend.

I hate Jeeps and I would never buy one.

That fact aside, I realize that this is a world full of crazy people, and some of those people are actually going to like Jeeps. I'm cool with that. I think Jeep has done a great job of marketing their ugly, uncomfortable, and impractical vehicles to people that will never use their off-road capability. For the most part, Jeep has kept the breed pure, and not many manufacturers can say that.

Vigo wrote: For the record, i have some thoughts regarding Jeeps other stuff and the ideas you mentioned. First off, the Commander was just dumb. Not because it existed but because it wasnt sufficiently delineated from a Grand Cherokee. All it had was 2 more crappy seats and boxier styling. They should have put the Commander on the Durango platform. The Liberty should never have been RWD from the start. It was a timid first step into the present realm of selling jeeps as soft on-roaders, but i honestly think in the long run it was pointless. The Liberty should have been based off the PT cruiser and be the size of the patriot/compass. As it is, the liberty is stupidly overweight for what it is and doesnt even have the truck torque to go with the truck weight. The Compass is a giant mistake and everyone knows it. The only way they could have saved that thing from utter misguided mediocrity is by making it the baby Jeep SRT. Caliber SRT-4 underpinnings, Rallye package outers, and MAYBE as an image car it would have been justifiable. Other than that, the compass was basically Jeep swinging and somehow hitting the catcher in the face. The Patriot i actually like more than the liberty, commander, or compass. The styling is right. The price is right. The utilitarianism is right. The soft-road ability is right. If anything, i think it just needs torque, and more love from Jeep.. more marketing, more gimmicky trim packages, etc.

the liberty wasn't supposed to be a soft-roader, it was supposed to be a nearly-as-capable offroader as a stock xj, with a bit better ride. its been a long time since i've ridden in an xj, but i think they accomplished that. that's not to say they couldn't have done a bit better, as it almost seemed like they were trying to make an ifs libby ride like a SFA xj.

the compass and patriot are the same car, with only a different body. i guess their platform whoring worked on you, but i think they were supposed to be separate vehicles, but after the accountants got hold of the engineers, they both got compromised into that crapcan. i've had both as rentals, other than a few small styling cues inside, the interiors are nigh identical.

The liberty was supposed to be what the OP mentioned - IFS on an otherwise capable jeep. You see how the market treated that one.

The Wrangler jumped the shark when it got four doors. Way too many suburban commando's with them in the Denver area for me to ever take that thing seriously, with stuff like bumper jacks and shovels bolted to the sides of of Jeeps with perfect paint and stupidly tall alloy wheels with fake allen heads at the rim.

But there's not really anything else quite like it on the American market unless you consider "vehicles" like the Kawasaki Mule or similar.

Vigo wrote: The Compass is a giant mistake and everyone knows it. The only way they could have saved that thing from utter misguided mediocrity is by making it the baby Jeep SRT. Caliber SRT-4 underpinnings, Rallye package outers, and MAYBE as an image car it would have been justifiable. Other than that, the compass was basically Jeep swinging and somehow hitting the catcher in the face.

What really gets me? The Compass was supposed to be a "rally car inspired" Jeep. They based it on the same platform as the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution. And then they somehow didn't make the connection that they could put the EVO's drivetrain (or the Caliber SRT-4 motor, which has the same block) and an EVO-like suspension on it and turn it loose on the WRC. Why build a "rally car inspired" Jeep when they could have built a for-real rally car Jeep?

In reply to pres589:

the JK was not the first jeep that has been available with more than two doors, or the first to be available as a 2wd. people fear change, i guess.

the 4door JK does look like a golf cart with the doors off, though.

As far as a black ops edition - just capitalizing on a market. On the big picture, the wrangler is one of precious few car lines that hasn't had its brand destroyed by design by committee or pandering to an audience the design wasn't intended for - although regulation probably will take it out. The newer JK is a big fat pig compared to the TJ - which is a big fat pig compared to a CJ 5-7 (they were pigs compared to CJ 2-3s).

Wranglers are the original/ultimate SUV/offroader (don't tell my early bronco friends I said that). That is the brand for it. When you abandon those capabilities it's time to kill the name or rethink what your brand really is. It doesn't matter that 95% of them will never be off pavement. As long as it is actually capable.

I use mine - it has mud on the inside of the roof. It's rough riding (my own fault on shocks), tall, doesn't handle all that well on the road and needs a little extra room to stop. I don't care. I like the hum of the tires and that it can pull itself out and over a 2 1/2' river bank. The JK is already too big for a lot of wooded trails and better suited for mall crawling. I don't want leather, sat/nav, don't need/want ABS, traction control, back up cameras or IFS/IRS. Call me an old fart or a luddite if you want, but I don't need my car to think for me, entertain me with videos, park for me. If I wanted a giant, luxo suv looking thingy, there are tons of choices. If I actually want to go serious offroading there's maybe two choices - Wrangler or FJ. The hardcore FJ offroaders will swap for a SFA. Only one choice if you want the top off...

the compass and patriot are the same car, with only a different body. i guess their platform whoring worked on you, but i think they were supposed to be separate vehicles, but after the accountants got hold of the engineers, they both got compromised into that crapcan. i've had both as rentals, other than a few small styling cues inside, the interiors are nigh identical.

What makes you think i dont know they are the same car when in the same breath i mention the Compass i suggest putting Caliber drivetrain/suspension in it? Come on, now, i know what it is. But most new car buyers dont buy platforms, they buy models. Nobody who wants a Patriot thinks "ah but its just the same thing as a Compass with shoulder pads to make me think its masculine" and then buys a Compass because they dont want to feel like they got tricked into something? They buy the Patriot. They dont care about the underpinnings.

the liberty wasn't supposed to be a soft-roader, it was supposed to be a nearly-as-capable offroader as a stock xj, with a bit better ride.

Im sure that was part of it, im sure thats what they said out loud, but looking back on the Liberty its easy to see that the main signifigance of its design was to try to normalize what was coming: Trail rated, fwd Patriot, and fwd Compass. My opinion is that the Liberty was a half-measure that is good at nothing. People here are complaining about how people buy jeeps and then never take them off road. Off-roading liberties are rare, and the thing is carrying around most of 1000 lbs it doesnt need to do what buyers actually wanted it to do.

In reply to Strizzo:

It's got nothing to do with looking like a golf cart and everything to do with the four doors making it more appealing as a "lifestyle appliance" if you know what I mean. I'm not remotely afraid of change, I'm saying that all of the sudden it was really easy to rationalize a Wrangler for a lot of people once it got four doors, and these things are spending more and more time as mall ornaments because of the new change in buyer demographic.

pres589 wrote: In reply to Strizzo: It's got nothing to do with looking like a golf cart and everything to do with the four doors making it more appealing as a "lifestyle appliance" if you know what I mean. I'm not remotely afraid of change, I'm saying that all of the sudden it was really easy to rationalize a Wrangler for a lot of people once it got four doors, and these things are spending more and more time as mall ornaments because of the new change in buyer demographic.

I would likely drive down to the Jeep dealership and buy a 4 door Wrangler...if they put a real motor in it. It is too bad Jeep doesn't have a capable V8 that has been proven to fit in the engine bay without modification.

In reply to miatame:

Why would you want that? I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, I just don't get the appeal. Vehicle is already "interesting" to drive, why do you want a V8?

I assume the Pentastar 3.6 V6 will end up in this thing if it isn't there already, do you need more motor than that?

pres589 wrote: In reply to miatame: Why would you want that? I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, I just don't get the appeal. Vehicle is already "interesting" to drive, why do you want a V8? I assume the Pentastar 3.6 V6 will end up in this thing if it isn't there already, do you need more motor than that?

Current V6 makes the 4 door a slug and towing is pathetic. The new V6 may be enough, not sure. Dropping a 5.7L HEMI motor into the Wrangler makes a lot of sense don't you think?

No.

oldtin wrote: As far as a black ops edition - just capitalizing on a market.

Some people don't seem to realize that video games have the highest gross sales of ANY media these days. Halo 3 was the biggest media release ever when it came out 4 years ago. Cawk of d00die (since Modern Warfare) has beat it every time.

The current V6 is a dog. It's slower than my 20 year old YJ with the 4.0, and FAR slower than anything "modern" has a right to be. I know why they had to ditch the 4.0, but they could have done better than that minivan motor.

they already had the 4.0L v6 available from the dodge nitro, i dont understand why both the liberty and the new wranglers got the doggy 3.7 and 3.8L engines.

or what really makes the most sense.... put in a turbodiesel or any of the v8s.

pres589 wrote: No.

Are you not a motor vehicle enthusiast?

pres589 wrote: In reply to Strizzo: It's got nothing to do with looking like a golf cart and everything to do with the four doors making it more appealing as a "lifestyle appliance" if you know what I mean. I'm not remotely afraid of change, I'm saying that all of the sudden it was really easy to rationalize a Wrangler for a lot of people once it got four doors, and these things are spending more and more time as mall ornaments because of the new change in buyer demographic.

i'd say it has more to do with it being offered in 2wd, so that people can have "the look" with a little less cost, than it does with having four doors. for years people said "give us a 4-door, or at least some more legroom in the back, ferchrissakes" they sorta did with the TJ unlimited, which was exactly what i was looking for when i was shopping beginning of this year, only as a rubicon w/6spd.

before they went to the 4-door, they were limiting their potential customers to the same people who wanted the practicality of a 4-seat coupe. if you're a professional who has to sometimes take clients to lunch, or occasionally pick someone up at the airport, you don't want them having to climb in over the front seat in a $1000 suit to get in the tiny back seat. until then, your options for an offroad capable SUV were few and far between.

I could easily do without the macho-poser edition JEEP.

Two nights ago, I was driving home from a social event at about 10 PM. In front of me is a Wrangler, soft top, no side curtains, no doors - we're going about 50 mph. It is approximately 30 degrees F and snowing moderately. I thought to myself - there's a guy who is actually tough enough to walk the walk with a JEEP.

Imagine my surprise when I pulled along side at a stoplight and the driver was a girl - a very attractive girl I must say.

bludroptop wrote: I could easily do without the macho-poser edition JEEP. Two nights ago, I was driving home from a social event at about 10 PM. In front of me is a Wrangler, soft top, no side curtains, no doors - we're going about 50 mph. It is approximately 30 degrees F and snowing moderately. I thought to myself - there's a guy who is actually tough enough to walk the walk with a JEEP. Imagine my surprise when I pulled along side at a stoplight and the driver was a girl - a very attractive girl I must say.

That's pretty cool.

There are two types of car guys (and girls) as I see it. The ones who appreciate vehicles designed for a specific purpose other than commuting back and forth to work, and the ones who read a lot of Car & Driver and talk about cars while quoting numbers they read in C&D and talk about how they want to buy that M3, then get into their Accord or Corolla.

Those people drive me nuts because they are the ones dumbing down the enthusiast vehicles because they say they want an SUV but they really want an Accord!

If you aren't manly enough for a Jeep that's cool, but that leaves you no right to complain. Get back in your Accord and be happy!

BTW I think Jeeps "special editions" are lame on the surface, but many actually have options included that make them more capable off road. The TJ had a Tomb Raider addition that seems lame on the surface but actually included equipment on top of the already potent Rubicon such as fender guards, bumper skid plate, and rock rails.

Here we go again with people complaining about the 3.8 and talking about how 20 yr old 4.0s were faster. It's not the motor, ITS THE WEIGHT!

The 4.0 is noisy. The 4.0 is coarse. The 4.0 is heavy. The 4.0 feels like E36 M3 to rev past 4k rpm. The 4.0 usually has some pretty nice blowby by 150k. The 4.0 is a big-ass motor that makes getting to stuff on the front annoying in a smaller vehicle.

NONE of that is true of the 3.8, and it makes the same amount of power. The 3.8 is a good motor. THE TRUCK IS JUST TOO DAMN HEAVY. Im surprised people arent bitching about the 3.7 in the liberty? The 3.7 is the engine that has no reason to exist. Its like twice the size of the 3.8, not as reliable, and doesnt do anything better.

I agree there should be a diesel option. I agree it should have gotten the 4.0. I dont really agree that there should be a v8 wrangler, simply because it would move the mpg from 18 to 12, and Jeep would have to make that up somewhere else (i.e. sell something even less capable than a compass with a tiny-ass motor) to stay CAFE compliant.

Vigo wrote: I agree there should be a diesel option. I agree it should have gotten the 4.0. I dont really agree that there should be a v8 wrangler, simply because it would move the mpg from 18 to 12, and Jeep would have to make that up somewhere else (i.e. sell something even less capable than a compass with a tiny-ass motor) to stay CAFE compliant.

i'm not convinced it would get significantly worse mileage performance... looking at the 1500 silverado base 4.3L v6 vs. 4.8/5.3/6.2L v8s, the optional v8 engines were rated only 1mpg worse or even 1mpg better depending on options. plus its more than 50% more power.

and yet another reason to get rid of the ridiculous cafe garbage?

bludroptop wrote: I could easily do without the macho-poser edition JEEP. Two nights ago, I was driving home from a social event at about 10 PM. In front of me is a Wrangler, soft top, no side curtains, no doors - we're going about 50 mph. It is approximately 30 degrees F and snowing moderately. I thought to myself - there's a guy who is actually tough enough to walk the walk with a JEEP. Imagine my surprise when I pulled along side at a stoplight and the driver was a girl - a very attractive girl I must say.

Did we get a name?

miatame wrote:

pres589 wrote: No.

Are you not a motor vehicle enthusiast?

Lord. A person can be an automotive enthusiast and still think putting the 5.7 Hemi into a Jeep as a factory option is rather silly.

The thing won't tow well. It shouldn't weigh that much. 280+ HP and lots of tasty torque in the Pentastar V6. Like Vigo said, if the 4.0 YJ's and previous were quick enough, why shouldn't this be a rocket sled? 90+ hp more than the 4.0's. Lots of tasty aluminum construction techniques for light engine weight. Would the truck 5.7 come that way?

Where does this end? It got the four doors some people asked for. You can get it in a hardtop. You put a V8 in there and what do you have now? I would only back this idea if it let them kill off all the other Jeeps short of the Grand Cherokee, especially if they would sell the V8 in the military truck flavor of the Wrangler that civilians apparently shouldn't have.

Meanwhile I still feel that a two door soft top Geo Tracker with the right upgrades and hacked fenders & rubber flares is a better Jeep than anything currently sold with a Jeep badge. If this company is so serious about offroad why can't they do better in 2010? If they want to be a soft core Barbie box why is the Wrangler still the way it is? Seems like it's clinging to an image that will only continue to erode.