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Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/2/20 11:42 a.m.

LIVING IN A VAN! DOWN BY THE RIVER!

ok, so considering a conversion van here. The main purpose would be to take down to the challenge and back. Me and my brother. Needs to tow the challenge car on a trailer (very light car and trailer combo, say 3k lbs). Would love to be able to sleep in it. Say 2500 miles round trip. 

Wife looked at renting an RV or even a sprinter-based-RV type thing. That's looking expensive ($200-300 per day, times 5 or 6 days). I figured I may be able to buy one and then use it and then resell and lose less than that on the transaction. I will have registration, insurance and xyz fees to eat, which could be nearly $300 in IL,  so that is a consideration. Prices look all over the map for this type of thing.

Am I nuts? 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/2/20 2:01 p.m.

Prices are all over the map because of Covid.  Normally conversion vans tank in value for no apparent reason.  I think it's because it is a somewhat specific market.  SWMBO was looking at short buses, small RVs and conversion vans over the last month, and they are all getting scooped up within minutes of being listed at twice their value.

Unless you're towing bigger stuff, don't be afraid of the V6.  They're slow, and often made slower by the inclusion of a 3.08 rear axle, but they can reward you with better-than-expected MPG.

Also, do some serious mathing.  A half-ton conversion van is often at or above GVWR with a full tank of gas and two passengers.  I'm not saying that is a terrible thing, but you will notice that you might have more frequent replacements of bearings, brakes, chassis components etc.    I  greatly prefer a 3/4 ton van since you'll be rewarded with beefy parts pilfered from the 1-ton truck parts bin.

Feel free to pick whatever brand you want.  I'm not a fan of the Dodge, and I lean strongly toward the Ford, but I wouldn't kick any of the big three out of bed for eating crackers.

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
9/2/20 2:04 p.m.

Vans were created to punish mechanics.

It will have cracked exhaust manifolds or broken bolts. It's the worst possible environment for an engine to operate tin.

Buy a 3/4 ton with a big block if you want to tow. Replace the manifolds with good quality headers and be thankful you won't have to do it again.

mgfoster
mgfoster Reader
9/2/20 2:12 p.m.

Shameless plug
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/is-it-a-camper-is-it-a-mobile-storage-unit-its-a-199x-gmc-vandura-conversion-van/173885/page1/

Seriously though the inside of a full size conversion van is truly astounding. Wouldn't mind getting one with a trashed interior and constructing the ideal bed/race car support vehicle storage solution.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/2/20 2:13 p.m.

I wouldn't go as far as the big block unless his challenge car is an 82 Fleetwood.  A well-sorted V6 or small block would be fine with a 14' trailer and a Miata.

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/2/20 2:36 p.m.

Years ago, an old childhood friend bought a conversion van new and had it equipped with a wheelchair lift.  Since it was his DD, fuel mileage was a concern so he opted for the V6.  A decision he said he regretted from the day he bought it.  It was woefully underpowered, even by his moderate driving standards commuting into Philly.  His van never got out of the teens in MPG - which is about the same as what my V8 van got.

Engine work on a van can be bad or good depending on the make and what you need to do.  For some tasks, being able to remove the doghouse and have everything right there in the interior wasn't that bad.  And some tasks were a challenge.  Spark plugs in my E150 5.0 were fun - some from the inside, some from the engine bay, some from the wheel well. 

If you think a gas V8 is tight, you should see what the 7.3 IDI looks like in my E350.  I've scrapped any plans to add a turbo kit to it and will now just save up pennies for a 12V CTD/Allison conversion - which apparently fits a lot better than one would expect (although I will need to do a '08+ front end conversion to make room for the FMIC).

I still see conversion vans for sale pretty cheap on FB.  If you buy one assuming it'll need a lot of deferred repairs/maintenance, then I don't think you'll be disappointed. Buy one assuming you'll be able to hop in and tow a car to FL with it tomorrow and I wouldn't be surprised if you come away hating it. 

If you plan on using it as a camper, get one with a raised roof.  While you still won't likely be able to stand up inside, just being able to maneuver around without being completely hunched over is nice.  One of the reasons I bought my E350 is it's an extended length "Turtle Top" version - I can stand up inside.  I camped a ton in my 1990 E150.  It was perfect for that task although I don't know about towing a car trailer with the 5.0.  Power and brakes were barely adequate just moving itself around.   

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia Dork
9/2/20 2:48 p.m.

Does a work van with an ice chest , coleman stove and a couple of air mattresses work ?

Much cheaper and you can use it all year......

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
9/2/20 3:08 p.m.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

Most conversion vans are done to a price with virtually no consideration to quality or durability.  
They are price point marketed.  A cheaper radio might add a little round window.  Cheaper bed might add an ice box. 
 

They were frequently sold to married men as a moble  motel room and with the resulting divorce deeply discounted. 
Mechanically  they are simply a work van with a bed and few other  cheap items. 

wae
wae UltraDork
9/2/20 3:12 p.m.

My dad had a few when I was growing up and I've owned two.  Dad's were Chebbys, mine were Fords.  I had a '97 E150 with the 4.6 and an '06 E150 with the 5.4.  I towed the same car on the same trailer with both of them - probably about 4500-5000 lbs with the car, trailer, tires, tools, etc.  The 4.6 got the job done, but you could tell it was trying while the 5.4 didn't have to work quite as hard.  I have no idea what axle either one of them had, but other than needing to take it easy up the hills, they were very well-mannered on the road laden and unladen.

The Fords eat up front end suspension, so be prepared to do upper and lower ball joints and use good parts.  For some reason the dash A/C works okay by itself, but as long as the rear air is at least on its lowest setting you get colder air out of the dash vents.  That was true on the Chevys and the Fords, oddly.  Fords also are prone to getting vacuum leaks in the lines that control the doors in the HVAC box.  They will fail-safe to the defrost position and a sign that they're starting to go bad is that they'll work normally until you get heavy on the throttle and then all of a sudden it'll switch to defrost.  I drove the last van for about 30k miles like that.  Fords are also pretty good about being pre-wired for brake controllers so all you need to do is get the adapter harness to plug into the Ford connector and then attach the mounting bracket to the dash.  My experience with Chevys is a bit dated in the GMT400 era where you were pretty much on your own.

They're pretty good to travel in, especially while trailering.  If you put most of your luggage in the car that you're towing and then remove one or both of the rear captain's chairs, you get a lot of room inside to be able to spend the night in a parking lot or camp at a racetrack.  Every conversion van I've seen has a third row that will fold flat into a pretty decently-sized bed, although at 6'3", I found that I needed to sleep diagonally.  The high-top vans are a pain in the rear if you ever want to pull it into a regular garage or if you often need to utilize parking garages, but it is pretty nice to be able to stand up, plus you get a little extra storage overhead. 

For camping purposes, I got some mosquito netting from one of the chain fabric stores, cut sections for the rear and side barn doors, and then used magnets to secure it over the openings.  I also put aftermarket head units in each van and having a wireless remote for them was pretty nice.  Perhaps now with phones and bluetooth speakers, that wouldn't matter quite so much.

They are vans and that means that pretty much every repair procedure is going to start with "lift body off of frame for access to engine".  It took me about 4 hours to change the 8 spark plugs and most of that time was spent on the two that were closest to the firewall of course.  The Fords use this weird clamp that was designed by Satan himself to connect the air filter to the MAF sensor and I can almost promise you that at some point after doing maintenance under the hoodlet, you'll find that you didn't get that reconnected properly.  Other than that, basic maintenance is pretty straightforward.  No need to break out the ramps or a jack to change the oil or trans fluid.  Brakes and suspension aren't anything fancy or expensive.

Unless you've got some huge enclosed trailer you're trying to drag, I wouldn't bother trying to find a 3/4 ton conversion.  They made some E250 conversions, but they're few and far between.  The later Chevys were available with rear doors on both sides of the van, which is nice, and they also had AWD as an option.  I found that the RWD vans always did alright in weather, although I did need to have it pulled out of mud once or twice when it was laden with a trailer.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/2/20 8:16 p.m.

I have owned so many twin I beam Fords, and was in charge of maintenance for a fleet of dozens of them alongside Dodge and Chevy.  I just don't understand the "eat front suspension" or "tire wear."  They are monstrously beefy pieces, and aside from an odd camber curve, they really kick butt.  My last Powerstroke E350 went for 335k miles with zero front suspension work except shocks and wheel bearings.  Most of the Ford vans and trucks in the fleet needed nothing.  Every once in a while I would encounter bad bushings, but none of them (13 years and hundreds of ford twin I beams) I don't recall a single one of them being problematic.

My guess is that Ford's I-beam suspension ranks up there with internet-fueled ideas like Vortec heads cracking before they're cast, flat tappet cams will fail instantly with modern oil, and Qjet carbs being called a quadrajunk.

If you end up leaning toward GM, and you're looking at the post-redesigned Savannah/Express, please, for the love of all that is good, do not get the early years with the traditional small block.  Either get the old G-van, or the later LS-powered vans.  They are E36 M3.  The A/C system was so poorly designed that when it was turned on it caused massive overheating with the airflow in the engine bay.  GM tried crutching it with a clutch-driven fan that was so insanely huge, if you floored it from a stop it would never shift past 2nd.  You would approach redline in second and the fan took so much power you would stop accelerating.  You had to lift up on the throttle to let it shift and remove some of the parasitic drag so you could keep accelerating.  Later, they just reduced the BTUs of the A/C to shoot the middle, but it still sucked.  Hardcore.  Cabin A/C was fair, but if you kicked on the cargo A/C, it was all downhill.  I probably dealt with 60 of these vans that the employees refused to drive, and several were so pissed about them they tried to organize a ridiculous strike until they had decent fleet vehicles.

LS and Dmax vans were fine.  Eariler G-vans, also fine.... probably because they made so little power, overheating wasn't an issue.

In the past when I've mentioned this, some of you have replied with "I have an Express with a 350 and it's fine."  I'm glad.  You either got the incredibly rare exception, or you live north of the Arctic circle.

It's super rare that I write off a vehicle flatly.  I know vehicle shortcomings and I research how to surmount them.  A Savannah or Express with an SBC is something that I pretty much write off.

I had a 1990 E150 with the 5.8L/E4OD combo that was an absolute tank. I bought it to drive in the horrible Nebraska winter for $600 in 2003. I could not afford a 4wd at that time. I took the rear seat out for more room. I used it like a beater pickup. It got 12mpg on a good day but I'll be damned if it didn't start everyday when it was -15°F. It would do absolutely amazing peg leg brake stands. I towed with it a couple of times but it was a car on a tow dolly. It did fine.

Need an engine moved? No problem!

Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter)
Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
9/2/20 9:08 p.m.

Drove a 1 ton Express wit a small block and a/c without issue, but that was a front A/c only work van. That said, I would look for a LS powered van and be done with it.

Tom1200
Tom1200 Dork
9/2/20 10:55 p.m.

I have a 90 Ford E250 coachman campervan and it's been great. I constantly get offers to buy it, especially since Covid hit.

You get a place to sit, sleep and eat. The big plus is being able to stand up, which makes changing into your drivers gear so much nicer.

Vigo (Forum Supporter)
Vigo (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/2/20 11:04 p.m.

Tow to the challenge with a conversion van, you say? 

I liked it just fine but i dont know if i'd go out and buy one for a single trip, to be honest. I still have this one and have no plans to get rid of it.

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
9/2/20 11:12 p.m.

I fixate on the 3/4 ton or better and a big block because there are some big mountain passes where I live. If you're in a flat state, your experience may be different.

I love seeing everyone who was rushing to get ahead of me on the flats fall way behind when I hit the hills.

I have to agree on the twin-i-beam myth. I've owned several Ford trucks over the years and when people tell me it will eat tires or suspension parts, I just ask when that is supposed to start. It's never been an issue for me but I guess anyone can neglect a vehicle.

I've had more Dodge Ram trucks in the shop for balljoints than I have F-series.

I learned my lesson on buying the small engine. Loaded down and towing, the big engine will be within one or two MPG of the small one but you will be able to maintain speed on the hills and actually pass people on the flats.

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
9/3/20 6:36 a.m.
ShawnG said:

Vans were created to punish mechanics.

It will have cracked exhaust manifolds or broken bolts. It's the worst possible environment for an engine to operate tin.

Buy a 3/4 ton with a big block if you want to tow. Replace the manifolds with good quality headers and be thankful you won't have to do it again.

Funny you mention that....

My Dad has a nice 1994 Dodge 250 Primetime conversion with the 318 that my son has taken an interest in.  I was looking to see if anyone offered headers for the thing.  I couldn't find any.  I assumed it's because only the stock manifolds will fit?

 

gearheadmb
gearheadmb SuperDork
9/3/20 7:17 a.m.
ShawnG said:

Vans were created to punish mechanics.

Removing the front seats helps a lot when working from the inside. If you go into it accepting that it's going to suck some it helps. 

Used conversion vans always have a weird smell. Its always the same smell too. 

Are there any artists in your family? I haven't seen any vans with a big mural on the side in forever and I would like to see that come back. A dragon and a wizard would be sweet. Just a suggestion. 

wae
wae UltraDork
9/3/20 7:17 a.m.

I don't what to tell y'all, but I had two of them and I had to put upper and lower ball joints on both sides for both of them.  I spent extra on the replacements and put somewhere in the neighborhood of 40k-60k on them with nary a problem before the vans were sold, so maybe they're just particularly hard on cheap parts.  Brake pads were something that were worth spending extra on as well, now that I think about it.  I bought some of the mid-grade pads from O'AdvanZone and only managed to get 15k-20k out of the set.  The replacement set - maybe Wagner, but I don't recall anymore - cost about 3x the other ones but when I sold the van about 50k later, there was still plenty of front pad left.

gearheadmb
gearheadmb SuperDork
9/3/20 7:38 a.m.

In reply to wae :

Ford front suspensions are like 4l60e/700r4. They will typically need rebuilt once in the life of the vehicle, and if done properly with quality parts you are all set. But ham fisted shade tree mechanics try to fix it with the bare minimum amount of the cheapest parts autozone carries, then go on the internet yelling about how the design is stupid and weak. 

And you're right about brakes. 1/2 ton van brakes don't last too long, they just aren't very big for the amount weight the are stopping. It seems like I see more pads and shoes cracking and falling apart on the vans than I see them actually wear out. I figure they must be overheating.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
9/3/20 7:47 a.m.

ALSO stay away from hi-tops. They add extra weight the suspension wasn't made to handle. We had a 92 G20 that ate rear leafs. Sure, stand up headroom was nice but damn... with helper leafs and beefy shocks it still wallowed hard and got 13mpg. 

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/3/20 8:01 a.m.
bobzilla said:

ALSO stay away from hi-tops. They add extra weight the suspension wasn't made to handle. We had a 92 G20 that ate rear leafs. Sure, stand up headroom was nice but damn... with helper leafs and beefy shocks it still wallowed hard and got 13mpg. 

Wrong.  Just... wrong... at least with Fords.  My E150 hi-top was fine.  Even when I heavily over-loaded it with firewood.

I would never buy a low roof conversion van.  Pretty much defeats the point of one.

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/3/20 8:13 a.m.

Ask yourself one question before getting too far- how much are you looking for?  

Just a replacement for a tent?  A tent that you can cook in?  Sleeping, cooking, water, and some kind of bathroom?

All if those considerations should factor into what you start looking for.

There are some super creative DIY vans on the interwebs, with very clever packaging of sleeping and cooking space.  Even for sub sized vans like a Transit Connect sized thing.  And a lot are done on a budget.

One thing to keep in mind is how much weight you add for the stuff.  It's been brought up before, but weight adds up to the total vehicle weight.  I've seen that there are junk yards around the country that are dedicated to salvaging RVs- see if one is in your area to get some of the tiny stuff that RV's can get.

Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:
bobzilla said:

ALSO stay away from hi-tops. They add extra weight the suspension wasn't made to handle. We had a 92 G20 that ate rear leafs. Sure, stand up headroom was nice but damn... with helper leafs and beefy shocks it still wallowed hard and got 13mpg. 

Wrong.  Just... wrong... at least with Fords.  My E150 hi-top was fine.  Even when I heavily over-loaded it with firewood.

I would never buy a low roof conversion van.  Pretty much defeats the point of one.

Having driven both high and low top Fords for literally millions of miles, I'm going to have to go with Bob on this one. The low top vans drive better. Doubly true when there is any wind blowing. They also burn more gas. It's not death defying bad, but it is noticeable when you climb out of a low top from work and take your high top to dinner. The high top never seemed like a necessity to me. Just extra conversion parts to go to go to pieces. 

The trick to Ford's I-Beam suspension is don't let just anybody work on it. Take it to a shop that actually knows how to work on them. Due to the camber change throughout the suspension travel, they need to be aligned with their normal load, including driver. I usually got front end work done at the dealer. They had a 200 pound weight they hung on the front end while aligning. I regularly got 80k plus out of a set of tires. 

As a said above, the conversion parts are going to go to E36 M3 faster than the rest of the van. My last one had pealing paint on all the fiberglass parts, the window blinds and the conversion seats when to pieces long before the rest of the van did. All that stuff looks real fancy until it gets some age on it. They go from nice to ratty in a hurry. If I was looking for a tow beast van, I don't think I'd buy a conversion. I'd buy a passenger van and modify it to suit.

The E150s are hard on front brakes. It's even worse when you hook a trailer to it. Don't buy cheap pads. Buy a very good towing pad. The cheaps ones will fade in stop and go interstate traffic when towing, the mountains can only be worse. If you can find one, get a E250. The brakes are night and day different. 

 

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/3/20 9:07 a.m.

These are good considerations. Main reasons for wanting a van instead of a tent is basically that we can throw a van in park in any Walmart parking lot in America and catch some z's with little issue. Doesn't matter if it is raining or whatever either. Ability to fry an egg for breakfast would be cool too, but definitely not necessary. 

Really the big question I'm asking is can you buy and resell stuff like this 'cheaper' than you can rent for a week? Unless we happen to particularly love the experience, I don't really see keeping the van around too long. 

Also, I would have to buy as "ready to go" as possible since most if not all of my time between now and the challenge needs to be dedicated to the challenge car. 

Also also, I realistically could probably take all the seats out of our odyssey and toss a mattress in the back to meet the purposes of "sleeping in a van that can tow 3k lbs". I just thought that if I could nearly break even on the Buy and Resell process that it might be an interesting option. 

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/3/20 9:17 a.m.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

In that case - no. I wouldn't expect to be able to do that with any cheap, used car/van/truck.. Rent a U-Haul van and use that. Or stay in hotels.

I seriously do not understand the anti-Hitop opinion.  You're buying a bloody box on wheels.  Getting anything other than the largest box you can defeats the point of it to me. Otherwise buying a effing pick-up truck.  I'm not buying a van for it to drive great. I don't berking care.  

(yes... someone just pissed in my corn flakes...)

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