Miatas in what classes

Soma007 wrote:

P71 wrote: Leave the interior in, get an ST tire (Star Spec, Rt615K, RE11), and run STR (since you have a Torsen). You can upgrade brake pads/rotors/lines, intake up to throttle inlet, header, cat, cat-back, ECU tune, pulleys, roll bar, sway bars, springs/shocks/mounts/traction devices, and even add some aero.

Or throw some DOT-R tires on the stock wheels, add a front swaybar and have a very competative ES car? Running STR in an NA is pretty pointless IMO. An S2000 or NC with a half decent driver behind the wheel is going to slaughter an NA no matter much $$$ you throw at it.

And I think that's absolute bull-honky. Lightness is everything, and with the amount of mods that can be thrown at an STR car, I think they all have a shot. If anybody ever decides to stop being a lemming and shows up with a GTUs FC RX-7, a 968 (or 944 S2), or fully-built NA I think they would mop the floor with the sheeple. That's th major over-riding problem with SCCA autocross, is everybody subscribes to the theory that's only one or two dominant cars for a class and nobody even tries to run anything different. It's frustratingly annoying.

I'll give you the cliff notes version of each class :)

STR: Spend lots of money on stuff like headers, intakes, ECU tunes, etc and maybe gain 15hp. Then spend a thousand or two on a suspension that makes the car even more uncomfortable and still be a seconds behind anyone in an S2000 or NC that's even slightly conscious. As an added bonus since you have to run street tires there's a good chance you'll even be slower than an ES car

CSP: Could be a fun class if the other people in your region are slow and/or have under-prepared cars. If anyone shows up with a proper, well driven CSP car prepare to be blow away or spend cubic truckloads of cash trying to keep up. A real CSP car built to the limit of the rules is not cheap and not really usable on the street either.

ES: The cool people class. Add race tires, a front sway bar, and shocks (as expensive as you like) and have a nationally competitive car. If you don't care about being competitive then go do track days or something cause driving a car around a parking lot stops being fun gets old pretty fast when you're not in it to win or if your car is hopelessly outclassed.

P71 wrote: XP is the catch-all. You can only add forced induction for Modified (SSM). If you keep the interior you can run SSM and have a chance. In XP you will have your doors kicked in. Our *local* XP cars include an 11-second LS1-swapped widebody FC and a Nationals-trophying 914-6 race car. *No* Miata, boosted or not, has gotten remotely close to the times those two cars put down.

I'm pretty sure there were 3 miatas (2 were DP) that beat the local yellow XP 914/6 at the last event at Packwood.

I'm just in STS, can't get within a second and a half of the the well driven STR NC Miata...then again, I don't have raw driving talent or power steering ;-)

In reply to P71:

A fully prepped NA is going to mop floor with STR? How do you propose that is going to happen? Are you forgetting anything you do to a NA Miata you can do to a S2000, or NC, or MR-S Spyder?

The NA's are barely competitive in STS against CRX's. Where do you think they're going to find the speed to compete against much faster cars? The better LSD will help but nowhere near enough. Let's compare the NA to the two popular STR cars:

NA vs. S2000

• The NA is short at least 100hp (say 140hp vs 250 in STR trim)
• The NA is about 400lbs lighter, which is good, but no where close to how light it needs to be to make up the power deficit
• The NA is limited to 225 width tires while the S2000 can run the full 255 width allowed by the rules
• The S2000 has superb ABS brakes where at best the NA has a primitive ABS system, or no ABS at all. I don't care who you are ABS is a good thing.

NA vs NC

• Again the NA is down on power by about 50hp
• Again the NA is lighter, but only by ~200lbs so it will still be slower in a straight line
• Again the NA is limited to a 225 width tire while the NC can run 255's
• Again the NC has a much better brakes

The MR-S is a contender in STR too, its even lighter than an NA and has more power but even still they're not keeping up with the NC or S2000's.

Sheeple? Do you think national level autocrossers are dumb? There is a reason a handful of cars rise to the top in each class. Cause they're the best cars for the class period. Any one serious enough to fully prep a car for a class would be stupid to choose an underdog unless they have a signifigant advantage the other cars don't (see Jason R in 2007).

I could see the MR-S rising up if people could figure out how to set it up.... lightness does go a long way, but it's still struggling despite that because of lack of power.

With the NA, you've got MORE weight, LESS power, and possibly less tire? That's not really a recipe for success.

Yes, i'm sure someone like Mike would stomp me in his NA if i had an STR MR-S, simply because i don't have the driving experience. But i just don't see any possible way that equal drivers in a full prep MR-S vs. full prep NA could get a faster time out of the NA. Throw the Sky/Solstice and S2000 in the mix, and it becomes nothing short of a blowout.

Trust me, i'm all for being different. I'm on the hunt for an MX3 GS for ST/eventual FSP use. But there's a point where even though bench racing sucks, there's really a concrete answer. This is one of them.

The best tire for the NA, NB & MR-S in STR would be either the Hankook RS-3 or Toyo R1R in a 225/45/15. That's because no one makes a wider 15" street tire thats any faster. You can probably make a 245 fit but you have to step up to a 17 or 18" wheel at a considerable weight/gearing penalty. So much so the 225/45/15's are really the only logical choice.

jeffp wrote:

P71 wrote: XP is the catch-all. You can only add forced induction for Modified (SSM). If you keep the interior you can run SSM and have a chance. In XP you will have your doors kicked in. Our *local* XP cars include an 11-second LS1-swapped widebody FC and a Nationals-trophying 914-6 race car. *No* Miata, boosted or not, has gotten remotely close to the times those two cars put down.

I'm pretty sure there were 3 miatas (2 were DP) that beat the local yellow XP 914/6 at the last event at Packwood. I'm just in STS, can't get within a second and a half of the the well driven STR NC Miata...then again, I don't have raw driving talent or power steering ;-)

Jeff,

OK, so the trailered DP race car can (same car with 3 drivers).

We also don't have 1.8's, or Torsens. Did you see that Glen went 53 with the STS monster? That's 2 seconds faster than the STR NC did...

In reply to Soma007:

So when that 240SX showed up out of nowhere and blew STS (now ST) out of the water, it wasn't because the class is supposed to be Spec 89 Civic Si? I'll tell you exactly why only 1 or 2 cars "rise to the top". Because somebody fast builds one, and everybody else follows them, completely unwilling to try anything new.

As for the NA vs NC STR thing (results from our last Regional Packwood event, which is basically a tune-up for next week's ProSolo and the following National Tour):

• STR 193 Morris Green 06 Mazda MX5 55.159
• STR 93 Brian Clemons 06 Mazda MX5 55.243
• PSTR 93 James Paulson 06 Mazda MX5 53.438
• PSTS 941 Glen Hernandez 95 Mazda Miata 53.787

So an open diff, 195-tired Nationals-built STS NA is 0.35 behind a Nationals-built STR NC at rules-max (both with Nationals-winning drivers). Give that NA a Torsen, an aftermarket cat, and wider tires and you really think it wouldn't pass the NC?

P71 wrote:

jeffp wrote:

P71 wrote: XP is the catch-all. You can only add forced induction for Modified (SSM). If you keep the interior you can run SSM and have a chance. In XP you will have your doors kicked in. Our *local* XP cars include an 11-second LS1-swapped widebody FC and a Nationals-trophying 914-6 race car. *No* Miata, boosted or not, has gotten remotely close to the times those two cars put down.

I'm pretty sure there were 3 miatas (2 were DP) that beat the local yellow XP 914/6 at the last event at Packwood. I'm just in STS, can't get within a second and a half of the the well driven STR NC Miata...then again, I don't have raw driving talent or power steering ;-)

Jeff, OK, so the trailered DP race car can (same car with 3 drivers). We also don't have 1.8's, or Torsens. Did you see that Glen went 53 with the STS monster? That's 2 seconds faster than the STR NC did...

True, and 3 seconds faster than me. Better driving than me, better car choice, and better car prep. Glenn is amazing to see drive. Still, I'm pretty dang sure the NC has more potential than an NA at an equal level of car prep with equal drivers.

That was about as equal car prep and drivers as you're going to get, for STS and STR anyways. Both driver's have won Nationals and both cars are prepped for Nationals this year.

I dunno if it's necessarily better car choice. You have won every event this year ;) I might actually be closer soon as I ordered shocks (Koni STR.T's) and Audra bought a rollbar (Hard Dog Sport). This car has the rigidity of a wet noodle when the hardtop is off! I'm doing the timing belt/water pump tomorrow. We overheated at Packwood.

In reply to P71:

The 240SX won because it had a significant advantage over the Civic's, he could run the then new RE-01R when they couldn't. That's a significant advantage. The NA as no significant advantages over an S2000 or NC in STR.

Local events don't mean anything, even national tours don't mean much unless the top drivers are there. Nationals will tell the tale and I'm pretty darn sure even the unholy union of Michael Schumacher, Ayrton Senna, and Ricky Bobby wouldn't be able to win in an NA.

In reply to Soma007:

Ricky Bobby driving a Miata....

Hmm... funny thing about auto-cross... and in a way this goes back to the "what's broken" thread... I don't really care about the car I'm driving... I'm interested in the competition... so I wouldn't prep a car - no matter how much fun it might be - to run in a class with only one or two other competitors. In many ways, this is region-specific and also a bit of where the "sheeple-factor" comes in - it's not so much about the car, it's about competing. Of course, this goes somewhat against the GRM-creed on this forum.

Here in Philly, we have a pretty good collection of ES cars (Miatas and MR2's, mostly), but only one or two CSP cars at best. So given a choice, I'd prep a NA for ES. Likewise, we have a number of C-Stock cars, so I'd love to build one of those. That said, if I had money to burn, I'd buy a new MINI JCW and prep it for CS... and talk one of our top drivers into co-driving it with me. Just to see what it could do. Especially since we currently have the reigning GS champion drifting around in an AS C5 and would probably be game.

Soma007 wrote: In reply to P71: The 240SX won because it had a significant advantage over the Civic's, he could run the then new RE-01R when they couldn't. That's a significant advantage. The NA as no significant advantages over an S2000 or NC in STR. Local events don't mean anything, even national tours don't mean much unless the top drivers are there. Nationals will tell the tale and I'm pretty darn sure even the unholy union of Michael Schumacher, Ayrton Senna, and Ricky Bobby wouldn't be able to win in an NA.

So a Regional Event, held at a National Tour site, two weeks before said ProSolo/Tour (one of the few places that does both), with Nationals-prepped cars, driven by recent Nationals winners is NOT relevant HOW??!?!??

And last time I checked, 400Lbs was a significant advantage. That's how much lighter the Mustang is than the Camaro and why it was faster and handeled better with 100 less HP...

Not relevant because you're just looking at one little corner of the country. There are lots and lots of fast guys running STR across the country and we won't know how they stack up against each other until nationals. Where according to you we'll see an NA wiping the floor with everyone else right?

400lbs is not an insignificant amount of weight, but again its not enough to overcome a 100hp+ horsepower deficit. And again the MR-S is lighter and has more power than the NA yet its not keeping up with the S2000's and NC's.

Your Mustang/Camaro comparison is not relevant to STR. Both cars have more than enough usable power to begin with so adding another 100hp or even 300hp is not going to make a huge difference in times because they're both traction limited anyways. Plus looking at power to weight ratio's 10.8lb/hp vs 9.05 ('10 Mustang vs '10 Camaro) is not much of a difference compared to 15.7lb/hp vs 10.4lb/hp (NA vs S2000).

Lets look at it this way. Can an ES Miata compete against a BS S2000? No way right? Otherwise they'd be classed together correct? So what does a NA gain in STR that will make it that much faster than a comparably prepped S2000?

Anything? Sure its 400lbs lighter but that was that much lighter in Stock too yet it was still slower. Nothing will change that in STR, both cars get the same modifications, both will get faster, but the relative time difference between them will stay about the same.

Anyhow I'm done with this. We can revisit this after nationals when we have some real results to talk about.

Yes because the one event that is filled with the flock of sheep is somehow more relevant than every other event in the entire country of cars playing in a parking lot...

You have the exact SCCA mentality I rail against. IE - Nationals is all that matters, there can only be one winning car, and Stock is the measuring stick.

Yes, when it comes down to it Nationals are all that matters. Sorry, but you must be completely delusional to dismiss the biggest event, with the best drivers and the best cars in it as not being relevant.

And my mentality has noting to do with the fact that an NA Miata stands no chance in STR with equal prep and equal drivers. You're welcome to try and prove me wrong, but until then you're going to need more tech than "Lightness FTW!!" to prove your point.

I wouldn't say Nationals are all that matters, but they are a good measuring stick simply because the talent pool of drivers is so much deeper and you know that most of the cars running will be prepped to the limits of the rules.

Let's face it, prepping a car for National-level autocross is not a cheap task, regardless of classing. Would you want to start with a car that has a proven track record and you know will be quick, or do you gamble on something out of the norm that might be quick. Again, to most top auto-x drivers, the car is little more than a tool to compete with and most have little attachment to the car they drive. Hell, looking at the past Nationals results, a good percentage of the winners were in borrowed cars.

Soma007 wrote: Yes, when it comes down to it Nationals are all that matters. Sorry, but you must be completely delusional to dismiss the biggest event, with the best drivers and the best cars in it as not being relevant. And my mentality has noting to do with the fact that an NA Miata stands no chance in STR with equal prep and equal drivers. You're welcome to try and prove me wrong, but until then you're going to need more tech than "Lightness FTW!!" to prove your point.

No, it's not. If you never, ever have plans on going to the Nationals, then the compromises that come with building a "Nationals Car" goes away.

Granted, many of those compromises are not that bad, as seen by Andy's STS build.

But it IS a factor. I can build a really fun CSP car that I can build and drive it on the street.

Especially for this thread.

I'm pretty sure that one can make a really fun STR car for a reasonable price, and be competetive enough, and have a great time- all with an NA.

If you have no national ambitions then fine. Drive whatever makes you happy. Just don't complain when a better car/driver comes along and beats you.

THAT is what drives me nuts about casual autocrossers. They buy the wrong car for the class (like an NA for STR) then bitch that its not fair...

Soma007 wrote: THAT is what drives me nuts about casual autocrossers. They buy the wrong car for the class (like an NA for STR) then bitch that its not fair...

...or they bitch about R-comps in Stock....

R-Compounds are great! They're a PITA but worth it IMO. I think I'd take up knitting before I autocrossed a stock Miata or Mini on street tires.

Ian F wrote:

Soma007 wrote: THAT is what drives me nuts about casual autocrossers. They buy the wrong car for the class (like an NA for STR) then bitch that its not fair...

...or they bitch about R-comps in Stock....

Ooooh! Start the countdown until P71 stomps his foot about that one again.

Autocross is supposed to be a "fun" competition. Like any other competitive endeavour, some will take it more seriously than others - it's a human condition. Everyone has to play by the same rules, but some people want to win more than most.

The people who don't care as much about winning shouldn't whine when they get beat by those who do.

Just my $.02, adjusted for inflation.

Ian F wrote:

Soma007 wrote: THAT is what drives me nuts about casual autocrossers. They buy the wrong car for the class (like an NA for STR) then bitch that its not fair...

...or they bitch about R-comps in Stock....

Well, ummm, YEAH. I run in DS because I currently run my stock car because I don't have a lot of money or space to spend on autocross. So I show up on my daily driver summer tires - I thought that was the point of "stock"? - and I get trounced by somebody with R-comps.

I understand it's my fault for being underprepared, but the rule seems stupidly inconsistent with the apparent intent of the class.

Oh look. It's THIS thread again.