Move over Tesla, it’s the Sony Vision-S

Gingerbeardman said:

z31maniac said:

Gingerbeardman said: Half of Americans live outside of major metro areas in the "flyover states".

 

According to the last census it's more like 82% of the population live in a "metro area."

 

 

So majority rules is a justification to force the rest of the country to go along with what is being decided? Very pro-democratic...mob rule. I like it, let me just dust off my communist paraphernalia...

At what point did anybody suggest that you have to get an EV?

If ICE vehicles ever cease production (not likely) it will be because EVs have got good enough that they can be equal or better in every way.  I won't hold my breath on that.

Knurled. said:

In reply to Gingerbeardman :

If people didn't want hybrids or EVs, they wouldn't buy them and the market would crater.  When the Model 3 was announced, people were lining up blocks-long to get the opportunity to put down a deposit.  People want them and other manufacturers are taking notice.

I'm completely unthrilled with how nobody sells small cars in the US anymore, but this is because people have voted with their dollars that they'd rather drive small trucks.  Or large trucks.  So we get what we got, because that is what is selling.

 

What I find interesting is that people used to say the automobile market was closed because of how expensive it is to start a new car company.  Now we are seeing new car companies.

I don't have a problem with EV's or hybrids. At all. I'm just realistic about the core problem with them...the battery. The battery is the crux of the issue...they don't last in the cold and hills deplete them when you're pulling a load. Both totally normal situations that are encountered in the real world. You don't see Teslas being used in Alaska as DD's...I'm sure there are a few up there, but they just don't fit the usage profile.

Gingerbeardman said:

z31maniac said:

Gingerbeardman said: Half of Americans live outside of major metro areas in the "flyover states".

 

According to the last census it's more like 82% of the population live in a "metro area."

 

 

So majority rules is a justification to force the rest of the country to go along with what is being decided? Very pro-democratic...mob rule. I like it, let me just dust off my communist paraphernalia...

Well when you're designing a product with the sole intent of turning a profit, you want to appeal to as many people as possible.

I'll come out and say it, unless your an OTR trucker or delivery driver, if you're still putting in 300+ miles per day, you should move closer to your berkeleying job.That's a "you" problem, not an ICE/EV problem.

Wyoming, Montana, Alaska, if you really want to hold onto your outlier "it won't work here so it's useless" mantra have next to no population, no population means no consumers, no consumers means no profit. Just have to sit back and wait, like most of rural Pennsylvania is still waiting on broadband internet.

In reply to Knurled. :

As has been pointed out, Europe has moved forward with banning non-EV's from city centers in 2022. It's not long until that happens here. 

Not to mention that the increasing "safety" and autonomous levels being proposed for mandate all but require EV's to implement effectively...ICE can be effectively de-coupled from the existing electrical system with aftermarket ECU's and various other workaround, whereas EV's will be more tightly integrated going forward. There are rumblings from Tesla that they are working to brick drive and battery units when disconnected and not using corporate level "keys". They don't like that people are using Tesla tech to build hack-rods. I don't see that changing going forward, especially with even more money at stake.

RevRico said:

Wyoming, Montana, Alaska, if you really want to hold onto your outlier "it won't work here so it's useless" mantra have next to no population, no population means no consumers, no consumers means no profit. Just have to sit back and wait, like most of rural Pennsylvania is still waiting on broadband internet.

What's most amusing about this is that we have some really decent broadband and were actually in the running for both Amazon and Google satellite campuses...

Gingerbeardman said:

Knurled. said:

In reply to Gingerbeardman :

If people didn't want hybrids or EVs, they wouldn't buy them and the market would crater.  When the Model 3 was announced, people were lining up blocks-long to get the opportunity to put down a deposit.  People want them and other manufacturers are taking notice.

I'm completely unthrilled with how nobody sells small cars in the US anymore, but this is because people have voted with their dollars that they'd rather drive small trucks.  Or large trucks.  So we get what we got, because that is what is selling.

 

What I find interesting is that people used to say the automobile market was closed because of how expensive it is to start a new car company.  Now we are seeing new car companies.

I don't have a problem with EV's or hybrids. At all. I'm just realistic about the core problem with them...the battery. The battery is the crux of the issue...they don't last in the cold and hills deplete them when you're pulling a load. Both totally normal situations that are encountered in the real world. You don't see Teslas being used in Alaska as DD's...I'm sure there are a few up there, but they just don't fit the usage profile.

Interesting fact. Alaska buys as many EVs (as a percentage of total new vehicle sales) as Michigan does. Kentucky, SC, West Virgina all buy fewer EVs. Wyoming is pretty low on the list but not at the bottom. Someone from Wyoming is 50% more likely to buy an EV than someone from Mississippi. Source: Alliance of Auto Manufacturers.

From an Alaskan standpoint, maybe having your car pre-heated before you get in is viewed as a bonus :) Better for range, too. 

You're going to find that this place has a fairly balanced view of EVs. Not necessarily fanboy level, but we have folks who were really early adopters as well as those who are running the state of the art and reporting on their actual, real world experiences. 

Knurled. said:

The trick is, we are finding that for a lot of peoplez what an ICE can do is not really necessary.

 

Lemme tell you a story.  When I started working where I do, the kid here said "How can he be any good, he doesn't have a truck!".  I said well, I don't need a truck except for maybe once every other year, it makes no sense for me to compromise the other 40-50,000 miles I will drive in that time just for an outlier condition.  I drive 20 miles to work and 20 miles back, I never haul anything that I can't carry on a 4' trailer.  So he said, "But you don't have a truck!  How can you work on cars if you don't have a truck?"

 

EVs won't be an equivalent.  For a lot of people (no not everyone, but a lot) they don't need an equivalent.

 

 

This I can wholeheartedly agree with. I'm not anti-EV or improved efficiency or anti-environment. I'm pro-choice, not pro-you-tell-me-what-my-choice-is-and-I-accept-it-or-go-without. 

Gingerbeardman said:

z31maniac said:

Gingerbeardman said: Half of Americans live outside of major metro areas in the "flyover states".

 

According to the last census it's more like 82% of the population live in a "metro area."

 

 

So majority rules is a justification to force the rest of the country to go along with what is being decided? Very pro-democratic...mob rule. I like it, let me just dust off my communist paraphernalia...

Nope, not at all.

It was really more pointing out that you are making up things in an attempt to justify your stance. 

The Auto Alliance is a trade group of automobile manufacturers that operate in the United States. It is the leading advocacy group for the auto industry, representing 77% of all car and light truck sales in the United States.

Yeah, a self-appointed industry group. Check out this list of EV specialty manufacturers!

American Honda Motor CO., INC

Aston Martin Lagonda of North America, INC.

BMW of North America, LLC

FCA US LLC

Ferrari North America, LLC

Ford Motor Company

General Motors

Hyundai Motor America

Jaguar Land Rover North America LLC

Kia Motors America

Maserati North America, INC.

Mazda North American Operations

Mercedes-Benz USA, LLC

Mitsubishi Motors North America, INC.

Nissan North America, INC.

Porsche Cars North America

Subaru of America, INC.

Toyota Motor Sales, USA

Volkswagen Group of America, INC.

Volvo Car Group

------------------------------

But you may be right. There may not be any EVs in a settlement of 4000 people way above the arctic circle that can't be accessed by road. Based on my experience in working in the far north, it'll mostly be snowmobiles and old GM pickup trucks. But I counter with - there are nothing but EVs on the moon!

In reply to Gingerbeardman :

The idea that anybody is forcing you to do anything is pretty silly, but you seem really upset about it. To be honest, I think there's never been a better time to have, use and enjoy a vehicle powered by the internal combustion engine. 

It seems you are offended by the fact that there are products and regulations being made by and for people that aren't you. This might be a tough pill to swallow, but that is actually the situation shared by all 7+ billion of us. Enjoy the things you enjoy, but don't imagine that anything is or ever will be about you.

Gingerbeardman said:

Keith Tanner said:

Interesting fact. Alaska buys as many EVs (as a percentage of total new vehicle sales) as Michigan does. Kentucky, SC, West Virgina all buy fewer EVs. Wyoming is pretty low on the list but not at the bottom. Someone from Wyoming is 50% more likely to buy an EV than someone from Mississippi. Source: Alliance of Auto Manufacturers.

From an Alaskan standpoint, maybe having your car pre-heated before you get in is viewed as a bonus :) Better for range, too. 

You're going to find that this place has a fairly balanced view of EVs. Not necessarily fanboy level, but we have folks who were really early adopters as well as those who are running the state of the art and reporting on their actual, real world experiences. 

I'm not gonna call you a liar, but since I have friends and industry acquaintances who live and work up there, I'm going to rely on their intel rather than some self-appointed industry group who may or may not cook the books to make things look better than they are.

All I know is that no one in Barrow AK is dailying a Tesla...maybe Anchorage, but that's practically the same climate as Seattle.

Barrow has what.. 4000 residents? 5000 tops? And that is probably for the entire area. Anchorage probably has 300k residents and 400k residents in the area. And probably 50% of the states population. So I don't think that Barrow is representative of the the average Alaskan, as the average Alaskan probably lives within 100 miles of Anchorage. 

The preheat/precool your car feature is once I'd adore to have.

Most people I know have remote starts so they can do that with their ICE vehicles...

I'm in the wait and see camp.  Probably will never have one, because by the time the tech matures, I'll be too old to drive anyway.

Keith Tanner said:

But you may be right. There may not be any EVs in a settlement of 4000 people way above the arctic circle that can't be accessed by road. Based on my experience in working in the far north, it'll mostly be snowmobiles and old GM pickup trucks. But I counter with - there are nothing but EVs on the moon!

Hey, we all have our wheelhouse and I've learned to trust my experience and my allies. I don't work in the world of rainbows and unicorns, I work in the mud and the dust and the snow and the ice, and if it doesn't work for me, I don't want any part of it.

I never said I don't want options for other folks...I don't want other folks forcing their options on me.

I'm guessing the extra payload for oxygen cylinders and carrying flammables aboard the lunar lander kinda made that choice a necessity...though didn't I read that the lunar rover used some kinda nuclear fuel cell for power?

Gingerbeardman said:

I'm sorry I'm such unworthy scum, I'll be sure to excoriate myself harder this evening when I do my penance for being a foul wretch of a non-millionare human being.

Honestly dude, just relax.  Nobody's assuming anything about you.  You've made your point (very) clear - unless EVs can do 100% of capability of ICE cars, it's not for you.  Cool.  Opinion noted. 

Let's move on so the rest of us coastal elite millionaires can discuss how to screw rural area Muricans!

Gingerbeardman said:

mtn said:

Barrow has what.. 4000 residents? 5000 tops? And that is probably for the entire area. Anchorage probably has 300k residents and 400k residents in the area. And probably 50% of the states population. So I don't think that Barrow is representative of the the average Alaskan, as the average Alaskan probably lives within 100 miles of Anchorage. 

Never said it was, but dismissing us who live in these "edge cases" is as good as saying we don't matter and while the opinions formed by our experience have no bearing on yoga-pants wearing, Starbucks-sipping, Tesla-driving, Soccer-moms, they very much matter to US, not just as opinions, but because if our options were only EVs or nothing, we're not only screwed, we were just made third-world citizens by our fellow countrymen.

NOBODY OUTSIDE OF YOUR OWN HEAD IS DOING THAT THOUGH.

Nobody is making you trade in your lifted F550 diesel drinker for a Tesla. There have been no mandates requiring all new purchase be EVs.

Ev won't work for you, don't berkeleying buy one. End of story. Some of us are actually interested in the tech, even if it is from a company known for hating and suing its customers.

You're upset about a problem of your own invention, that somehow seeing an article on a racing magazine aimed at hundreds of thousand people singled you out saying you MUST to go buy the new hot Sony garbage prototype that isn't even a real vehicle

 At least that's how it looks from here.

Did you used to have another account in this forum by chance? Possibly with the word "garage" in the name?

bcp2011 said:

Honestly dude, just relax.  Nobody's assuming anything about you.  You've made your point (very) clear - unless EVs can do 100% of capability of ICE cars, it's not for you.  Cool.  Opinion noted. 

Let's move on so the rest of us coastal elite millionaires can discuss how to screw rural area Muricans!

Trust me, I'm relaxed.

Saying that a 1 hour commute each way for work is a me problem, rather than an inflated real estate price problem, is pretty clearly uninformed about the reality of us "edge cases". Just like other folks, we work where the money is. Unfortunately I can't swing the purchase price to live where I work yet. Maybe after this bubble pops...hopefully I've got enough saved to take advantage, instead of losing most of it like the last recession.

Gingerbeardman said:

mtn said:

Barrow has what.. 4000 residents? 5000 tops? And that is probably for the entire area. Anchorage probably has 300k residents and 400k residents in the area. And probably 50% of the states population. So I don't think that Barrow is representative of the the average Alaskan, as the average Alaskan probably lives within 100 miles of Anchorage. 

Never said it was, but dismissing we who live in these "edge cases" is as good as saying we don't matter, and while the opinions formed by our experience have no bearing on yoga-pants wearing, Starbucks-sipping, Tesla-driving, Soccer-moms, they very much matter to US, not just as opinions, but because if our options were only EVs or nothing, we're not only screwed, we were just made third-world citizens by our fellow countrymen.

(A) Noody is dismissing the edge cases. But Barrow is an edge case for just about anything other than a snowmobile and a 4 wheeler. Most of the contiguous 48 would be served fine with an EV, so it is annoying and pointless when folks come in here to state it won't work because of XYZ. I'm pretty sure that Walt Longmire, or at least one of his deputies would have been fine with one out in Wyoming... Isn't that the most sparsley populated state? (Currently binge watching the show... not bad!)

Gingerbeardman said:

Never said it was, but dismissing we who live in these "edge cases" is as good as saying we don't matter, and while the opinions formed by our experience have no bearing on yoga-pants wearing, Starbucks-sipping, Tesla-driving, Soccer-moms, they very much matter to US, not just as opinions, but because if our options were only EVs or nothing, we're not only screwed, we were just made third-world citizens by our fellow countrymen.

And on the 8th Day, God said "Let there be combustion engines!"  THankfully the founders saw the light and enshrined the right to own an ICE car in the Bill of Rights!  

RevRico said:

NOBODY OUTSIDE OF YOUR OWN HEAD IS DOING THAT THOUGH.

Nobody is making you trade in your lifted F550 diesel drinker for a Tesla. There have been no mandates requiring all new purchase be EVs.

Ev won't work for you, don't berkeleying buy one. End of story. Some of us are actually interested in the tech, even if it is from a company known for hating and suing its customers.

You're upset about a problem of your own invention, that somehow seeing an article on a racing magazine aimed at hundreds of thousand people singled you out saying you MUST to go buy the new hot Sony garbage prototype that isn't even a real vehicle

 At least that's how it looks from here.

Did you used to have another account in this forum by chance? Possibly with the word "garage" in the name?

Bahahaha...I drive a truck for work, but it's hardly a brodozer...who can afford to fuel that thing?

No mandates YET. Key word. God forbid I think about potential future problems, I'm just supposed to think about potential future benefits. And gotcha, other people can say stuff and make claims, but I'm not allowed cuz someone might have to read it rather than ignore it, just like you're encouraging me to. 

I had already opined about the Sony Vision S as a car, but I guess that's discouraged too, because I'm not jazzed enough about it.

No, this is the only account I've ever had. Should I delete this one? 

Gingerbeardman said:

Keith Tanner said:

But you may be right. There may not be any EVs in a settlement of 4000 people way above the arctic circle that can't be accessed by road. Based on my experience in working in the far north, it'll mostly be snowmobiles and old GM pickup trucks. But I counter with - there are nothing but EVs on the moon!

Hey, we all have our wheelhouse and I've learned to trust my experience and my allies. I don't work in the world of rainbows and unicorns, I work in the mud and the dust and the snow and the ice, and if it doesn't work for me, I don't want any part of it.

I never said I don't want options for other folks...I don't want other folks forcing their options on me.

I'm guessing the extra payload for oxygen cylinders and carrying flammables aboard the lunar lander kinda made that choice a necessity...though didn't I read that the lunar rover used some kinda nuclear fuel cell for power?

You might be surprised that some of the other folks you're arguing with work in the real world as well. I've worked in the Canadian Arctic, servicing communites like Barrow. I live in a small town in Colorado. I own a big diesel truck. I don't own any yoga pants and I don't shop at Starbucks unless I'm stuck in an airport and I'm desperate for something to eat.

The Lunar Rover used batteries. RTGs were used by other items on the Apollo missions, but the Rover did not. It was a pure EV, basically a golf cart. And trying to transport combustibles so that you could run a ICE in that environment would have been absolutely ridiculous.

bcp2011 said:

And on the 8th Day, God said "Let there be combustion engines!"  THankfully the founders saw the light and enshrined the right to own an ICE car in the Bill of Rights!  

Now we're just mixing metaphors. Obviously God was a gearhead...behold the machinations of the universe!

Actually I'm surprised the founding fathers didn't make more of an emphasis on right to travel vs. "privilege" of operation, and maintain personal sovereignty of said travel means, rather than surrendering it to captains of vessels as is currently accepted ie planes, trains and boats.

In reply to Gingerbeardman :

I, too, don't see the physics of the batteries that everyone else here sees.  But it's not worth a huge debate about it- just let the market deal with it.  There's no way a real mandate will work- too many nurf toss problems surrounding that.  At the moment at least.

But there are enough people here that think it will happen, and they are welcome to that opinion.

One thing I get conviced every day on, though, Tesla is not the answer.  When it comes to a fully sorted product, they let the consumer do way too much of it relative to every other OEM out there.  So while Tesla enjoys headlines, it won't be able to maintain the masses.  

Still- it's not worth getting into a massive argument about it.  Time will always tell.