M/T COTY for 2011

triumph5 wrote: GM talked and talked for years about making an electric/hybrid car. Dragging their feet, it seemed. They declare bankrutcy, and wham, in months, "here's the new volt see how we're improving our product line, and going green!" The timing was just so "convenient" for PR purposes. Before the bail out, they were very vague on when it would come out. BR comes, and wham, there it is. That's what I meant by rush to production.

For a new car like this- it does take 5 years to do it at a reasonable pace. Looking back, it was the 2007 Detroit autoshow where the volt concept first was shown. I would not be all that stunned if they had been working on the powertrain for a year prior to the show. Or if they pushed it, 4 years can be made.

All in all, it's been 4 years, which is right on track for a quick job, or 5 years if they had been working on it prior to that show.

And way back then- well before bankruptcy- the "experts" were thinking 2010-2012 for production- and if I get my math right, 2011 is right in the middle of that prediction....

therefore, not rushed.

Tom Heath wrote: I like the idea of the Volt, and can't wait to drive one so I can form my own opinion.

That's exactly the attitude I like to hear!!! I'm the same way, even being a hybrid fanboi - I didn't judge until I got to drive one myself.

Bryce

triumph5 wrote: And in 5 years when the batteries need to be replaced at $4K....

GM has stated, many times, that the minimum length of time these batteries would last is 10 years. GM is offering an 8-year, 100,000 mile warranty on the batteries.

triumph5 wrote: GM talked and talked for years about making an electric/hybrid car. Dragging their feet, it seemed. They declare bankrutcy, and wham, in months, "here's the new volt see how we're improving our product line, and going green!" The timing was just so "convenient" for PR purposes. Before the bail out, they were very vague on when it would come out. BR comes, and wham, there it is. That's what I meant by rush to production.

While they didn't produce a Prius-like hybrid car, GM has had several full hybrid trucks on the road since the fall of 2007, giving an almost 50% gain in fuel economy in the city over a similarly powered gas online truck. They have also had several mild hybrid cars, like the Malibu and Aura. Should GM have cranked out a full hybrid Cobalt or Malibu? Honda and Toyota both had extremely disappointing sales with their hybrids based on existing vehicles (Civic, Accord, Camry).

Your conspiracy theory about GM simply doing this as a PR exercise to distract people from their bankruptcy is hilarious. Do some research into the timeline of the Volt development, technology sharing agreements and GM's bankruptcy. In 2007, GM started development of the batteries for the Volt. In 2008 they showed the Volt concept and announced the intent to produce it. In the summer of 2009 they went into bankruptcy protection. 40 days later they emerged from bankruptcy protection. In late 2010 they put the first production Volts on the street. If your theory of rushing it into production for "convenient" PR purposes were right, wouldn't they have put it into production in 2009 when they came out of bankruptcy? Do you think that the Volt going into production at the same time they're offering an IPO is also convenient? Maybe it is, and if they decided to time their IPO with the intro of the Volt, then good for them. Why not raise some money when you've got a good product intro to drum up some excitement? Also, regarding the "look how we're improving our product line" comment you made, as if the Volt is the only decent product they've introduced lately, have you forgotten about the new CTS, the Camaro, the Cruze, the new diesel engine in the heavy duty pickups, the Regal, the Acadia, etc, that GM has introduced lately or were those rushed into production for PR purposes too.

Bob

Lots of good stuff in this thread. I too am excited (not about buying a Government Motors product, but about the technology) being cheap and available in the used market 10 years from now. Hell, if I had though dough to scoop up a 1st gen. insight right now, I'd do it. Most of the ones I'm seeing have had all the batteries replaced recently, so it seems like a great time to buy.

In reply to Pumpkin Escobar:

I don't dislike the Volt. I dislike hybrids / electrics. Because the are not the pollution free vehicles the purport to be. Do I like GM? No, but that is because of 40 years of crap an arrogance, not because of the Volt.

I don't like Chrysler either right now. You stiff your creditors and I am supposed to be in awe of your comeback? Please, spare me.

I am however a Ford shareholder since late last year. I like what Mulally has done there.

Please, call me a fan not a fanboi. Not everyone communicates with text speak.

0 emissions? Who says that? Ive never seen anyone toting a zero emissions hybrid banner. I am not a fan of Hybrids because I dont know them. The fact, though, that Porsche is coming out with a Mechanical Hybrid kinda changes my mind a bit. Is there potential in a Hybrid? Probably. Will I own one for purposes of fun? Maybe one day. Do I give Chevy some credit for trying something new? Hell yes I do. a partial definition of insanity is repeating an action and expecting a different outcome. At least they are trying to break out of their own mold. I say Kudos.

Until they make an electric car which doesn't need to by a hybrid, doesn't need to be charged by a largely coal fired power grid, doesn't need batteries which turn every land fill into a superfund site and can be "refueled" in minutes, count me out.

That attitude tacitly equates to 'it it were my choice alone, it would NEVER happen.'.

Some people in this thread have the right idea. Bryce being one of them, and i just noticed whose posts got the most up votes in this thread.. coincidence?

@ Schmidlap: Fantastic post!!

It's sad that noone ever talks about the 2-mode hybrids (what they call the truck system). They are an impressive and uniquely practical approach to 'hybrid' building and i think if more people new about it, more people would be demanding it.. after all, it's the system that requires the LEAST re-engineering of the rest of the vehicle and is in NO way mutually exclusive to full-power gas-engine use. You want a 400hp V8 AND electric assist/regen? You want a 2-mode hybrid. I was lucky enough to learn about the 2-modes as they were coming out through an ATRA seminar i attended.

Hell, if I had though dough to scoop up a 1st gen. insight right now, I'd do it. Most of the ones I'm seeing have had all the batteries replaced recently, so it seems like a great time to buy.

I did exactly that. I didnt have the money, so i sold a newer, faster Mazda3 (MT called 'poor mans 3 series') to get mine. A lot of them got the batteries replaced when they got a computer recall in 2006. Some other ones are just having the batteries refurb'd or replaced because they are 10 years old. Think about that.. these things were basically 1997-8 battery tech, a FIRST attempt and they STILL lasted 10 years in many cases.

Anywho, since i aint skurred i bought the only insight i could find with ~300k miles on it. I paid $3800 and i enjoy driving it every single day.

In reply to Pumpkin Escobar:

Hybrids are coming out because they are in vogue and manufacturers are trying to gain a presence in that niche. Get our power grid over to nuclear power and hybrid engines to run on natural gas (heck, I'll take more gas fired power generators) and I am on board. Right now, I don't see what the big deal is.

Hey why not run diesel-electric like locomotives.

I wonder what the age breakdown is here of those who are pro-hybrid and anti-hybrid?

I am 43 like small cars and real change not change for the sake of good intentions.

Electric cars will be practical when one can go to a service station and swap out drained batteries fir charged, much in the way we swap out empty propane ranks for those which are full

Anywho, since i aint skurred i bought the only insight i could find with ~300k miles on it. I paid $3800 and i enjoy driving it every single day.

That's pretty awesome. The ones I'm seeing are double what you paid, at which point I'd hope to get something a little 'nicer'(?). That said, the $7k versions are 1-owner and have under 100k miles. Makes you wonder why the hell they bought a hybrid in the first place, right!?

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/cto/2064886577.html

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/eat/cto/2005471141.html

I despise "hybrids" as namby-pamby trendwhore greenwashing. The Prius is a useless excuse for a car. The Volt is slightly better at being useless.

Electric assist and regen braking? AWESOME. I watched way more of the ALMS final at Road Atlanta this year than I should have, simply to look at the Porsche hybrid prototype in action.

My main problem with the hybrid movement at present is that hybrid technology is all a marketing exercise toward the Al Gore bongwater brigade. All the hybrids grabbing headlines and sales at this point are hairshirt approximations of real cars. (Nobody talks about the brilliant two-mode hybrid trucks! Why?) They're appliances for people that feel guilty about the idea of motorized transport, and they're activly aggressive towards those of us that want any sort of style and panache in our vehicles.

Lest you think I'm some he-man knuckle-dragger, this is coming from a guy who drove to work today in a Corolla.

All this would be forgivable if they were actually effective at their stated purpose: consuming less and polluting less. However, between heavy metal mining and relatively poor highway efficiency, they don't. (Not to mention the rather damning Top Gear mileage shootout between the M3 and the Prius. The Prius lost, by the way.) And the technical leaps required for hybrid technology to reach its true potential (diesel-electric, rotary Atkinson, turbines, supercapacitors) will never be made because, let's face it, hybrids are just a stopgap measure. They're the least disruptive and most marketable way for manufacturers to take off the shelf tech, tinker with it in the back room, and then go "Look, less CO2s!! MPGs!!"

Instead of, y'know, actually changing something about an unsustainable system and running cars on hydrogen-burning internal combustion engines. Hydrogen that we can make ourselves instead of buying it from people who alternately hate us and try to buy us. (The same goes for heavy metals used in battery manufacture. China is our only source at present, and the hate us/buy us dynamic is in full effect with that bunch as well.) Technology that we can retrofit to older vehicles with reasonable costs. Technology that was viable during the FIRST OIL CRISIS! BEFORE I WAS BORN!

Ok, I'm done now. Getting off my soapbox. . .

Back on . . .

Here's my last bold statement. Everyone who is looking at a hybrid car for the usual "hybrid" reasons would be far better off if they could have the exact same car with a diesel drivetrain.

Moparman wrote: I am 43 like small cars and real change not change for the sake of good intentions.

I am 28, like small cars, and believe that the world of automobiles will continue to change long after I'm dead, for better or worse.

Moparman wrote: Electric cars will be practical when one can go to a service station and swap out drained batteries fir charged, much in the way we swap out empty propane ranks for those which are full

Moparman, have you ever swapped out your gas tank at the service station? No? Why would you do that with a battery pack then?

Bryce

In reply to Nashco:

For the same reason you swap out a propane tank. it is faster and safer. What would you rather do, exchange your drained pack for a charged pack (for the price if the electricity and nothing more) or sit around for hours waiting for a charge.

This is what R/C car enthusiasts do. Is it practical to do yet on full-size vehicles? No but it may be some day as battery packs become smaller and lighter. Much more likely than expecting to quick charge a battery

RC cars have approximately nothing to do with passenger cars, similar to propane tanks for barbecues. Also, where do we get readily available hydrogen to save the world?

Sheesh, you Volt haters get a little silly when you're standing on a soap box. Is the air thinner up there or something? I'm not sure who gets weirder, the EV/hybrid haters or the EV/hybrid fanbois. Open your mind kids, there's a silver lining to every cloud. I've dabbled with a lot of different stuff on my projects and every one of them has positive and negative benefits. Don't lose too much sleep over it, just figure out what you like to do and do it.

Hate hybrids and EVs all you want, but after driving a hybrid and an EV in stop and go traffic and low city speed roads, then doing the same in a regular car, I'll take the hybrid or EV any day!!! Oh yeah, and electrics have some bad ass 60 foot times! So much more enjoyable, even if they are contagious, baby eating plug ins.

Bryce

Moparman wrote: In reply to Nashco: For the same reason you swap out a propane tank. it is faster and safer. What would you rather do, exchange your drained pack for a charged pack (for the price if the electricity and nothing more) or sit around for hours waiting for a charge. This is what R/C car enthusiasts do. Is it practical to do yet on full-size vehicles? No but it may be some day as battery packs become smaller and lighter. Much more likely than expecting to quick charge a battery

That's ridiculous. The Volt is an amazing vehicle. For my commute, I would never use the gas engine. I can plug it in to my garage outlet at night and be fully charged in the morning for about a buck. If I like, I can install a 220 charger and be on my way in a few hours. Unlike the Leaf(and other pure EVs) I can use the Volt as a regular car-you know 330+ mile trips. Its well built, distinctive in appearance and offers much new tech interfacing. Smart phone apps to pre cool the car, check service or charge, etc. The batteries are very conservative in the way they cycle and feature liquid cooling. I doubt there will be early failures. Considering the attractive lease rates for the Volt, I can pay a "normal" monthly payment(rebate factored in) and remove all of the risk. Good on GM for this one and I wouldn't be surprised to see one next to the F-car in my garage.

My commute is 100 miles each way. My daughter goes to college 6 hours away. The nearest shopping area is 30 minutes away. I need extended range.

Hybrids and elecs are stop gaps given current technology. I am all for electrics when they are a practical and convenient as traditional vehicles. It will happen, but not yet. I'll miss the sound and fun of internal combustion, but I will adapt. However, the Volt will not save GM, it will actually hinder growth. Diesel is the way to go.

As far as the Volt being amazing, most auto sector analysts disagree. It is a solution to a problem which not enough people want solved. 41K is ridiculous. The damn thing needs a $7500 tax credit just to make it overpriced.

In the U.S. the Volt will be the automotive version of the metric system. I remember when the country tried it when I was in grade school. Didn't quite catch on. As long as gasoline stays below $4 per gallon, Hybrids and elecs will be niche vehicles. Not everyone uses their car to drive 5 minutes to by lattes at Starbucks.

Moparman wrote: In the U.S. the Volt will be the automotive version of the metric system. I remember when the country tried it when I was in grade school. Didn't quite catch on. As long as gasoline stays below $4 per gallon, Hybrids and elecs will be niche vehicles. Not everyone uses their car to drive 5 minutes to by lattes at Starbucks.

I'm not sure if that's just a bad analogy, or actually unintentionally correct.

The metric system, more commonly called SI, has caught on- in industry. It's a lot easier to design and make it anywhere in the world if you can use the common international measurement system.

I know that there pretty much nothing that is "English" on modern cars, except for lug bolts, and wheel rims. And both are still targets.

SI is a WHOLE lot easier to deal with. But most Americans seem to be blissfully unaware of the common usage that surrounds them.

Amazing how that's quite similar to this hybrid thing, isn't it?

Bemoan the Prius, Insight, and now Volt, forgetting the Accord, Camry, Fusion, MKZ, Escape, and the various GM trucks, which are hidden in plain sight.

Moparman wrote: In reply to Cotton: Correct, GM had to keep it's truck and SUV lines open this past July to meet consumer demand. Last week, GM's CFO warned that Q4 revenue will be down due to the production shift from trucks to the Volt. Until they make an electric car which doesn't need to by a hybrid, doesn't need to be charged by a largely coal fired power grid, doesn't need batteries which turn every land fill into a superfund site and can be "refueled" in minutes, count me out.

I'd really like my Mr. Fusion too but I don't think your goals are realistic in our lifetime...

Moparman wrote: I wonder what the age breakdown is here of those who are pro-hybrid and anti-hybrid?

I'm sure it's what you think it is. My grandfather felt the same way when he couldn't buy a car with a carburetor.

Most people don't comute 100 miles each way to work. Aside from my wife and I everyone else in my family commutes less than ten, and most days don't get on a highway. Thats the type of commute where a hybrid excels, stop and go and low speed. I never saw them promoted as being better over the road. As far as the expense, that's the price for something new. At work We've been using hybrids for about ten years We were one of the first companies in the country to use them but we and the manufacturers we worked with learned alot and the prices have started to come down to the point that you see more hybrid buses and trucks every day.

There is no perfect answer but that doesn't mean we should try to find something that's better. Most of the arguments against hybrids are the arguments that come up anytime something new comes out. If we didn't take any chances we'd still be walking.

I'm 54, and I have no problem with the Volt. I only drive around 100 miles/week, 99% of that on city streets, so I could get by with just a couple charges a week and no gas at all. However, I prefer old sporty cars with manual transmissions so it will probably be a while before I look at buying one.

In reply to Wally, the metro transit system in Minneapolis has been adding hybrid buses to their fleet over the last few years as well. I like them.

In reply to stuart in mn:

We're testing some now with small turbine powered generators. In a 40ft bus the engine is about the size of a beer keg and quieter than the air conditioning.

In reply to alfadriver:

I was only referring to daily life, road distance household measurments etc.

In reply to Wally:

Not saying that we shouldn't try something better, but as another poster said these are stop gap measures. Hybrid and electric cars will be niche vehicles until they either become as convenient as tractional cars or fuel prices rise dramatically. Remember, it was the early 80s when the industry thought V8s were on the way out. 10 years later gasoline was about $1 per gallon and Detroit was cranking out the V8s as fast as they could build them (I was driving little Mopars an Mitsus at the time.

Americans will like big cars with minimal fuss. Only high fuel prices will change their minds. I still rather gave a diesel

Moparman wrote: In reply to alfadriver: I was only referring to daily life, road distance household measurments etc.

so am I. There's a lot hidden from the obvious. Which is the point that is missed when we talk Prius/Insight and forget Camry, Accord, etc compared to distance/fuel vs. what is being used for real.

Quite the ironic analogy, if you ask me.