New BRZ/GR86 Vs used sports/GT car

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

Actually lots of experience with old 80s turbos. Including 930's and 951's.  A 951 has positively instant throttle response in comparison with an old four speed 930. My experience of a 930 goes something like this. 30 mph in second gear, floor it.......30.5 mph, 31 mph, 31 1/2 mph, 35 mph 40 mph 55 mph holy E36 M3 the end of the road coming at me through a time warp mph.  Yes, the 951 is laggy with a relatively narrow talk bend by modern standards, but they still pull harder off of corners than the numbers above would lead you to believe.

Did you ever drive my 951? Lordy, did that thing have some turbo lag. It was a terrible autocross car because of it. 

A modern engine is going to be better than anything that was put into a 944 back in the day, hands down. More durable, torquier, wider powerband, better economy, more reliable, cleaner, you name it. I love 944s, but the engines were not the strong suit of those cars.

Man I'm beginning to regret bringing up the 944.  Yup, I drove your 951 and at least three other 951's over the years.  Yes they are laggy, but I stand by my assertion.  Compared to a CIS (Aka Bosch K jetronic, AKA high pressure mechanical fire hose pissing into your intake via a toilet bowl with five miles of plumbing) 4 speed 930, and in comparison your J Jetronic 951 has hair trigger sport bike throttle response.  Same with other 80's turbos.  They are laggy.  I am not comparing the twins to 944's, other have done that before.

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

bmw88rider said:

It's still an inexpensive sports coupe in it's DNA and fit/finish. From a performance viewpoint it is the most modern version of the Front/Rear sports coupe but the fit and finish is nothing close to the 944. 

Gonna disagree there. The 944 had great fit/finish for it's era, but the whole industry has improved tremendously since then. For instance, both my 944s had panel gaps you could drive a Cayenne through, and cheap, fragile plastic parts abounded in the interiors. The modern Frisbees (and basically all modern cars) are light-years ahead of that.

Truth, I think panel gaps on 924/44/68 cars are litteraly 5-7mm compared to the 2ish mm we see these days.

GameboyRMH said:

You should add a facelift/"krill grille" model ('17-'20?) Toyobaru into your calculations. Not as powerful as the '21+ model but it's way less money, and more reliable and slightly more powerful than the earlier models. Also much easier on the eyes than the latest model IMO

Nah, yes they are good cars, I've liked the twins since they were launched, but I don't see the point in a used older one.  if/when I actually buy something, I was already thinking in the $35-40K range, hence the 911's even if they are currently way over priced on the used market.  It's just the new Frisbee's seem to be so good, they are tempting me with their low price (relative, $30K for a new car like this today is a steal).

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

Having lived with all the various 944 you list the best of the bunch for an every day car is the s2. On paper it is not a winner but what makes it so great is the performance under the curve.  The drivability of the car is fantastic. 

This is fun.  I'm enjoying all the suggestions, although I don't think anyone has come up with anything I haven't considered yet. 

ClearWaterMS said:

m2 / m4 (m4 comes in a drop top) probably an E9x to get into your price range.  

AMG C class (C63s is the new one, not sure how old/unreliable you have to go to get to 30/40k)

Audi S4/S5 convertible

Lexus RC F (again not sure if they are in your price range)

Evora (I don't think these are in the 30 or even 40k range)

Pontiac GTO 

M2/M4.  - BMW jumped the shark 15 years ago for me.  With the exception of their FWD selection (MINI), they have nothing that appeals anymore, especially with their perceived reliability and their god aweful HMI.  It's basically the same HMI as in my wifes MINI, and it's my single biggest gripe about what is otheriise an excellent car.  I will take a modern Audi product over a BMW 11 times out of 10 and twice on Sunday.

AMG C Class.  You are close with this, but not as a replacement for my Boxster.  My other car is a V60 Volvo Wagon R Design with Polestare flash.  Basically a real Sport Utility Vehicle.  It tows our camper and trailer, it carries ski's and luggage in it's top box, it takes 4-5 people and two dogs.  It racks up over 20K miles a year even with reduced travel due to COVID.  An AMG wagon (or Audi RS Avant) is very much a future candidate to replace the Volvo (or another V60), but absolutly the wrong car for this comparison.

Audi S4/S5 convertible.  Considered, rejected.  Outstanding cars.  I really really love the S5 coupe, but taking the top off makes it just look like a drop top sedan.  MAsses of room in the back, but it doesn't hit the buttons, although an RS6 Avant does as a Volvo replacement, as above.

Lexus RC F.  I'm not sure if there's a back seat in the drop top version, but they definitely hit all the right buttons except price.  Amazing cars.  Other than the ugly grill they look great, the interior is stunning, they are a joy to drive both on the street and autocross.  But they are way beyond my price point for many more years to come.   

Evora, do the targa versions keep their back seat?  A possibility, but it is a Lotus, and if I decide to go with a high end used car a 911 vert is going to be hard to argue against.  Good call though.

GTO.  Another great car, but just too big (I know, I know, I keep on about XKR's, but that's different, it's a Jaaagggg) and nothing special enough.  Plus despite having an LS, they don't feel as quick as they should for that much power and torque.

This is the list:

1. 128i
2. Rx-8 (lfx swap if the engine goes or you start with a roller)
3. Older frs/BRZ ( if engine blows: k-swap, or maybe source a fa24 from an ascent and do some sort of Frankenstein build )
4. E36 m3

 The new gr86 won't require any work to be good. I don't love the sound of a Subaru boxer but YMMV.

lnlds said:

This is the list:

1. 128i
2. Rx-8 (lfx swap if the engine goes or you start with a roller)
3. Older frs/BRZ ( if engine blows: k-swap, or maybe source a fa24 from an ascent and do some sort of Frankenstein build )
4. E36 m3

 The new gr86 won't require any work to be good. I don't love the sound of a Subaru boxer but YMMV.

128i, Nah, Modern BMW's just don't do it for me unfortunately.

Rx-8.  Test drove them when they came out.  Lovely chassis, and nicely size interior and I like how they look.  Excellent ride/handling compromise, great fun chassis.  But the engine is just, I'm sorry rotor heads, but it's simply crap.  A rotary was fine for my 86 FC, but for a car made this century it just doesn't cut it.  Zero torque and an inexcusable appetite for gas, and this from someone who fully supports higher gas tax in this country.  Plus it's just old.  If I get a used car it keeps coming back to a 911 Vert, or a Jag.  A lot of this goes back to being a teen when a 911 or XJS was the ultimate aspirational vehicle.

Older Frisbee.  No point, the new cars are on the low end of my price point, and they appear to be a significant upgrade in real world performance, especially the improved torque curve for DDing.

E36 M3.  Outstanding car, great chassis, pity we were cheated on the engine.  They are also way to old, but most importantly they, like oil cooled 911's, have jumped way to the wrong side of the price/value curve. 

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

GameboyRMH said:

You should add a facelift/"krill grille" model ('17-'20?) Toyobaru into your calculations. Not as powerful as the '21+ model but it's way less money, and more reliable and slightly more powerful than the earlier models. Also much easier on the eyes than the latest model IMO

Nah, yes they are good cars, I've liked the twins since they were launched, but I don't see the point in a used older one.  if/when I actually buy something, I was already thinking in the $35-40K range, hence the 911's even if they are currently way over priced on the used market.  It's just the new Frisbee's seem to be so good, they are tempting me with their low price (relative, $30K for a new car like this today is a steal).

Agreed.

Although I don't know how the 17-20 are more reliable....we don't have enough data on the new car yet. They have only been in the hands of consumers for a few months. (I know that wasn't your comment)

z31maniac said:

Although I don't know how the 17-20 are more reliable....we don't have enough data on the new car yet. They have only been in the hands of consumers for a few months. (I know that wasn't your comment)

I meant that '17-20 were more reliable than the earlier models, they fixed the infamous leaky cam cover among other issues.

I'd avoid a 996/997 Targa like an invite to Satan's dinner party as entertainment. Parts are nearly unobtainaum for the roofs. Haven't you learned enough with your current Porsche?

I'd vote regular C5, plenty of room in the hatch for small dogs.

2008+ C6 (LS3 engine) is a nicer car if it fits the budget. 

370Z has room in the back.

Nice input. 

Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:

I'd avoid a 996/997 Targa like an invite to Satan's dinner party as entertainment. Parts are nearly unobtainaum for the roofs. Haven't you learned enough with your current Porsche?

I'd vote regular C5, plenty of room in the hatch for small dogs.

2008+ C6 (LS3 engine) is a nicer car if it fits the budget. 

370Z has room in the back.

On the 996/997 Targa, the scarcity of parts is news to me.  There aren't as many of those cars, but I do like the compromise of open/closed motoring.  But you are right, if parts are already hard to find then I'm out.  Thoughts on Convertible 997/991's?

C5's were great cars.  I came >< close to buying a new one for my 30th birthday.  Instead I made a much better long term decision and got married instead .  Having said that, they are getting old and the 90's styling hasn't aged well to me, despite the 10,000,000 bonus cool points for pop up headlights.  C5.5's (AKA C6's) on the other hand hit my sweet spot for Corvettes.  Best looking cars since the 71/72 C3's.  Also with a far better interior.  Really good cars that can fit doggo's.  Would also have a sort of family link as one of our dog's is a Samoyed, and my wife had a couple of Sammy's when she was a teen/20 something.  They used to get hauled around in the hatch of the Family C4 corvette.  I'm not sure why the Corvette doesn't quite have the hook on my emotions that a 911/Jag does.  IT should as they have always been one of my aspirational cars.  I think a used C6 or new Frisbee would be the most sensible choise.

A used C6 should feel like getting your money's worth for $30k, it will be much more expensive to run than a Toyobaru but cheaper than a Porsche - also there should be no parts availability issues any time soon.

dean1484 said:

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

Having lived with all the various 944 you list the best of the bunch for an every day car is the s2. On paper it is not a winner but what makes it so great is the performance under the curve.  The drivability of the car is fantastic. 

Agreed. I've owned an 85.5 8V and the 89 S2 and extensively driven an 84 8V and an 86 951 as well as a 924S. The S2 is easily my favorite.

Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:

I'd avoid a 996/997 Targa like an invite to Satan's dinner party as entertainment. Parts are nearly unobtainaum for the roofs. Haven't you learned enough with your current Porsche?

I'd vote regular C5, plenty of room in the hatch for small dogs.

2008+ C6 (LS3 engine) is a nicer car if it fits the budget. 

370Z has room in the back.

Wait, wait, what? You rule out a 996 Targa for parts availability and then recommend a GM with horrendous parts availability?!? Try to find an ABS module for a C5...

GameboyRMH said:

A used C6 should feel like getting your money's worth for $30k, it will be much more expensive to run than a Toyobaru but cheaper than a Porsche - also there should be no parts availability issues any time soon.

I agree that the C6 is the "best" Corvette, but it does have parts availability issues. Steering position sensor and fuel tank issues are coming up now, and I imagine more issues as the parts age out like the C5's are dealing with now. The problem with the C6 is that if you are going to do any track work at all, you should just by a Grand Sport since you'll be that much more into a base anyway to get it to last. The C6 targa roof is lovely though. So yeah, if you can afford it, C6 GS.

Corvettes have a huge following. Surely the aftermarket has or will step up with any of the hard-to-find parts? And there's an awful lot of standard GM stuff in them, too, and that's always going to be easy to find.

All these parts issues sure make a compelling argument for a new car.

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

Corvettes have a huge following. Surely the aftermarket has or will step up with any of the hard-to-find parts? And there's an awful lot of standard GM stuff in them, too, and that's always going to be easy to find.

Hasn't happened yet on the C5's. Let's be clear, these aren't sexy parts for the aftermarket to make like suspension arms or clutches, it's crazy-integrated electronic modules that "race car" guys just rip out anyway. Automatic HVAC control unit, steering column locks, EPAS module, ABS module, and rear diff parts are all C5-Corvette specific parts with little to no aftermarket, and what is out there is $$$$$ or disabling it.

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

All these parts issues sure make a compelling argument for a new car.

You know I own 3 old, high-mileage Porsches. I have had zero issues getting parts for any of them. In between FCP Euro, Pelican Parts, and dealers like Suncoast Porsche, I have been able to buy everything from little trim clips to major engine parts, and even at a reasonable cost. I had WAY more issues finding parts for my C5 Z06, my Audis, and even my Flex.

In reply to Javelin :

IT's not so much supply as diagnosis.  I'm stuck on the Boxster and assistance from AAZCD, and from Gearheadotaku hasn't helped me.  I"m out of my depth.  I'm giving up and paying to get it running again before spring arrives.  I don't want difficult to diagnose issues in old cars.  Also it was specifically 996/997 Targa's that part supply issues were mentioned for as my preference is always open top over closed.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

I missed your Boxster thread, what's the issue? Do you have a thread?

Do you have a Durametric?

Maybe I'm confusing who's who, but IIRC the issue he's having is that he bought a tiptronic car.

Have you actually seen a 996/997 targa? Calling them an open top car is kind of a stretch, it's more of an oversized sunroof than an actual targa/convertible. And I wouldn't want to go anywhere near that roof mechanism either.

dps214 said:

Maybe I'm confusing who's who, but IIRC the issue he's having is that he bought a tiptronic car.

Yes, Ade's car is a tip, but in his defense he got it super cheap. 

No, he doesn't have a Durametric, we've talked about going in on one, since my car has a CEL that won't go away and standard scan tools don't give enough information. It runs perfectly, but I can certainly see where he's coming from with old German cars and their weird problems.

In reply to Javelin :

It's auto trans related.  Long thread here.  The auto trans died, I removed  it and had it rebuilt by the guy who does all auto rebuilds for the local Porsche dealer as well as Range Rover, Audi etc.  I've had electrical/electronic issues since then. 

Cliff notes.  Car wont start unless there is an OBD dongle plugged in, doesn't have to work, just needs to be plugged in.  But the bigger issue is the shifting.  When I first got it going again the trans shifted fine, but I got flashing lights in the PRDL lights in the dash.  The 'D' and '5' lights flash alternately.  That says the trans temp sensor is dead.  Well even though it was a rebuilt trans I dropped the valve body, replaced it, but no difference.  Still the same thing.  The car would drive OK despite this as long as you stayed in Auto.  If you tried switching into manual mode, no joy.  Sometimes it would stick in gear, then occasionally if you floored it, you'd get a harsh shift, the lights would stop flashing and it would be fine, until you cycled the ignition. It also wasn't consistent.  It's now got worse and will not shift out of second gear.  I may be forgetting a lot as it's been dragging on for a year, and I've ignored it for many months now sitting in shame.  It's obviously an electrical issue that I can't find, even with Jeff (Gearheadotaku) helping and going through much of the diagnosis in the factory manual we can't figure it out.  I don't have a durametric, although I was close to buying one I haven't as a) If there's an external problem in the wiring / connectors, would it be able to diagnose that? and b) If I decide to get rid of the car I'm not sure I want to spend that much money on a one time tool.

Two different ground buses go through the DLC, chassis ground and sensor ground.

I wonder if your sensors ground circuit is faulty, and connecting something to the DLC connects it to chassis ground, allowing it to start.