Do you live where they use salt?
I just looked at a 75k km (45k miles) Mazda 3 that has literally no rear fenders and seriously compromised sills. I mean like 3-4 inches of the rear fenders gone to iron oxide.
I won't even look at Mazda's because of this. Many of the Japanese brands aren't much better, but Mazda is the worst. The European brands and the North American brands are much better, in general.
NGTD said:Do you live where they use salt?
I just looked at a 75k km (45k miles) Mazda 3 that has literally no rear fenders and seriously compromised sills. I mean like 3-4 inches of the rear fenders gone to iron oxide.
I won't even look at Mazda's because of this. Many of the Japanese brands aren't much better, but Mazda is the worst. The European brands and the North American brands are much better, in general.
I concur! Many Mazda’s in my area with rust around rear wheel wells and rockers.
Is a FoST a possible contender? I saw 2018’s advertised for $19k recently, and there are still some 17’s on the lot.
I'm in the same boat, especially in my distrust for VW and my dislike of the "GTI Stigma" (which is funny, kind of, since I currently drive a 170k mile WRX...). But the more I look at the similar segment to you (albeit usually the up-performance models like the Civic Si, GTI, etc), the more I find myself coming back to the GTI for checking all the boxes for me. It's just more bang for the buck than the CIvic Si, Elantra GT, etc in my opinion.
I still have major reservations about VW reliability, BUT now VW has 6 year / 70k bumper to bumper warranty so at least I could be not worried about it becoming a money pit for the 5 years or so it would take me to get ot that mileage. IDK.....but yeah, I agree with you that new cars overall suck. Few choices if you want a M/T these days for sure.
The VW Sportwagen seems like a screaming deal, but I drove one an man....it is pretty slow in stock form.
Irish ... what is this “GTI stigma” that you refer to ?
Regarding VW reliability, my 75k mile 2011 GTI has not been very impressive. Intake manifold puked under warranty at 45k miles, decarboning of the intake valves was needed at 50k miles, replacement of a bad design cam chain tensioner was prudent to do at 50k miles (just out of powertrain warranty), among other more minor nuisance issues. Love driving the car but this is likely my last VW / Audi product. Wife’s 2014 Accord just hit 120k miles with nothing required except routine maintenance as my comparison to what reliability should be.
My 2014 Cruze 1.4t 6speed has been pretty solid and is now at about 160k. A front wheel bearing (along with a cracked rim) a plastic coolant line and battery cable have been the extent of the repairs. Its slow but averages about 35mpg.
My brother just got 17 Mazda 3 auto hatch. I prefer the VW as far as interior and drivetrain go but just generally trust mazda more.
The wife just got a 18 Alltrack 6speed. There is no other manual turbo AWD wagon on the market so even though VW scares me here we are. The 6/72 warranty helps ease my mind.
It's a very nice place to spend time. Handles well. Being AWD it gets fewer mpg than a sportwagen. You can't get the lightning package without the sunroof and auto or day trans. It's been reliable so far but that's only 6k. The sunroofs like to leak.
They are kinda pokey in stock form. Someone told me a $400 JB4 tuner which can't be detected when uninstalled really wakes them up....or so I've heard. Very close seat of the pants feel to her outgoing 04 Forester XT with a tune and exhaust. This is at the cost of running premium. So far we are seeing 25-26 mpg on the wife's in town 20 mile round trip commute.
drainoil said:NGTD said:Do you live where they use salt?
I just looked at a 75k km (45k miles) Mazda 3 that has literally no rear fenders and seriously compromised sills. I mean like 3-4 inches of the rear fenders gone to iron oxide.
I won't even look at Mazda's because of this. Many of the Japanese brands aren't much better, but Mazda is the worst. The European brands and the North American brands are much better, in general.
I concur! Many Mazda’s in my area with rust around rear wheel wells and rockers.
This is not uncommon.
I did the same dance with pretty much the same cars 4 1/2 years ago. I was weary of the VW, liked the CX5 but couldn't get an AWD with a 6 speed. In the end I bought a used Subaru Outback w/6MT.
As most of the driving will be your commute I'd go with the Mazda 3.
I did the same dance with pretty much the same cars 4 1/2 years ago. I was weary of the VW, liked the CX5 but couldn't get an AWD with a 6 speed. In the end I bought a used Subaru Outback w/6MT.
As most of the driving will be your commute I'd go with the Mazda 3.
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
That's because the CX3 is based off the Mazda 2. The comparable CX model to the 3 is the CX5.
einy said:Irish ... what is this “GTI stigma” that you refer to ?
Regarding VW reliability, my 75k mile 2011 GTI has not been very impressive. Intake manifold puked under warranty at 45k miles, decarboning of the intake valves was needed at 50k miles, replacement of a bad design cam chain tensioner was prudent to do at 50k miles (just out of powertrain warranty), among other more minor nuisance issues. Love driving the car but this is likely my last VW / Audi product. Wife’s 2014 Accord just hit 120k miles with nothing required except routine maintenance as my comparison to what reliability should be.
IDK how it is where you are, but around here every flatbrim-wearing 18 year old has a stanced GTI it seems (well, those that don't have a stanced STi, that is). I swear every time I'm driving my (non-stanced, non-flashy) WRX every GTI I get near seems to have to try to race me. This area is well-to-do enough that high school kids get new GTIs with Work wheels and crap.....except the ones that have Audis or BMWs.
I have a mortgage, so a GTI is at the top of my daily-driver price range lol...and if I get one I'll just debadge it and throw some Golf badges on :)
einy said:Regarding VW reliability, my 75k mile 2011 GTI has not been very impressive.
The Gen 3 engine in 2015+ model years is a lot more reliable, with none of the manifold, water pump, or chain tensioner issues.
We're also considering the Alltrack for my wife. It ticks every box: manual, awd, and wagon/utility. However, I'm sick of dealing with poorly designed German crap (regardless of the long warranty), and VW is a dirty, rotten scumbag company. I think I just talked us into a CX-5, auto and all.
volvoclearinghouse said:So I've sort-of wrapped my thinkin' sphere around the concept of getting a new car. And not just a "new-to-me" car, but a _brand new_ car. I'm going to get off the crotchety train and deal with touch screens and whatnot, and even decided there's a few cars that don't look horribly objectionable. So, with that in mind, I've test driven a few.
In order (so far) the test subjects included a diesel 6M/T Chevrolet Cruze hatch, a Mazda 3 Hatch (2.0L 6M/T), and a Civic 1.5T hatch, also 6MT. There was noticeable turbo lag in the Chevy and Honda, and that, coupled with the really sweet shifter in the Mazda 3, makes that one my favorite driver. The rear seat in the Cruze had pretty terrible headroom; the 3 and Civic hatch were acceptable. Controls in all 3 seemed reasonable, though I liked a few little things about the Mazda better than the other 2. The Cruze is a big ??? in my book for reliability, and the Civic seemed cost-cut in a lot of ways.
My main gripe with the Mazda at this point is the existence of one car I have not yet driven- the Sportwagen. Since we have 2 kids, a dog, and my current driver (a '91 Volvo 240 wagon) gets used as a hauler a lot, I really like the extra space in the VW. The 5M/T would probably be more to my liking than a 6 speed, and from everything I've read the tech on the VW is fairly minimalist and driver ergo good.
My problem is VW reliability. It seems like people either have hair-pulling-out troubles with VeeDubs, or they run for 500,000 miles with nothing more than routine maintenance. I have two friends who have bought newer VW, and neither has really had any trouble with them.
What does everyone here think? Should I give the Sportwagen a shot? Is the 1.8T a solid engine? Or should I go back to the Mazda dealer, armed with the knowledge that a new 3 is coming out in 2019, and try to score a deal on a 2018 and just accept the smaller cargo capacity?
Rant: Why, oh why, does no other automaker sell a real compact station wagon??? If there were such a thing as a Mazda 3 wagon, I wouldn't even be typing this right now. The VW is literally the ONLY compact wagon in the game right now.
The only way to approach a Chevy Volt is to first do the math. In any car how many miles will you drive it before you get rid of it? What sort of fuel mileage will you expect? What do you want to project fuel will average over that period?
Example 150,000 miles or 10 years. Average 35 mpg cost $3.50 gal = $15,000
you can adjust anyone or all of those numbers to get a different result.
Lets say 200,000 miles 10 years 32 mpg & $3.25 gallon = $20,315
Use whatever numbers you feel will reflect your real world experience. I picked 10 years because the math is easy.
Somewhere around $1500-2000 a year? Less the first few years while inflation doesn’t change things too much more as inflation increases.
Now add back the cost of fuel for trips over 40-50 miles. Personally I can think of only 10 trips a year but your situation is going to be different. Figure out what each one of your over 40-50 mile trips will cost. Let’s say they are 150 mile trips to visit somebody or someplace. Assume first 40 are “free” so 110 miles @ 40 mpge same $3.50 gallon cost so $9.62 per trip ( simple math) $10 a trip x 40 trips a year=$400
From the price you pay subtract the $15-20,000 add back the $4000 trip cost And now you are ready to compare the Chevy Volt to the VW or Mazda or whatever.
Checking with KBB the BASIC 2018 Volt sells for $30-32,000 according to KBB in effect you would be buying the Volt for $10-17,000?
NOW TO BE FAIR you might not drive as far as you think, and gas might not get more expensive in the future.
( sorry the last one had me laughing )
By the way the Chevy Volt was tested here by GRM read what they thought of it then read other reviews
red_stapler said:einy said:Regarding VW reliability, my 75k mile 2011 GTI has not been very impressive.
The Gen 3 engine in 2015+ model years is a lot more reliable, with none of the manifold, water pump, or chain tensioner issues.
Yet. 
Guys, I appreciate all the math help, but hey, I'm an engineer here, I literally do math all day long all week long and twice on Sundays. OK, maybe not Sundays. But definitely Saturdays. Math has almost nothing to do with this. Sometimes I feel like a bit of an anachronism, tooling to work in my 30 year old Swede. I like it...but my back longs for something a little more comfortable and my limited free time (with 2 kiddos) says I ought to buy something I won't have to wrench on in between fluid changes.
Yes, I pulled insurance quotes on the cars I looked at. Nothing surprising.
I do not think that I could not care any less than I do about fog lights or carplay/android/apple...whatever. I listen to FM radio (usually just 2 stations) and I want heat and air conditioning. My car could have 4 knobs to do what I need it to do.
Yes, I live in Maryland, and yes, they salt here (or potassium chloride or whatever evil thing they're using now) but I see lots of 10+ year old Mazdas used as dailies without much rot. And honestly, while I'd sell the Volvo 240 after buying the new car, I'd probably keep the '83 Mercedes, toss some winter tires on it, and use it if the weather's bad. It's an $800 car with rust already, costs me $160 per year to insure, and has a great heater. There would probably be maybe 2 weeks out of the year when I'd drive it due to snow. If I really need to haul something, there's the '93 Chevrolet Dually.
I'm a little surprised at some of the "are you sure you need a manual?" talk, given this is GRM. Again, I'm spending my money, buying a new car for the first time in my life, and dangit, I'm gonna spec it how _I_ want it, as best I can- including color. Plus, given how the market's going, the manny tranny model of whatever is probably going to be worth more in 10 years.
I sat in a Mazda 6 and it felt...big. Like, bigger than I wanted to deal with on a commute. And it had a pretty sizable blind spot.
I do like the Buick wagon. I've strongly considered it, even sans the manual trans option. The main things that give me pause are a) like the Cruze, it's an assemblage of lowest-bidder bin stuff from all over the world, and b) it's likely to be an orphan soon, so future parts availability may be questionable. I had a buddy with a GTO that got totaled out for fairly minor damage, simply because the cost of getting parts from Oz was prohibitive.
I glanced at the Niro hybrid, Prius, Volt, even a Bolt (a co-worker engineer just bought one, and likes it) but I don't like the styling (I know, subjective) of any of them, which is kindof a non-starter. I know -I_ don't have to look at the thing when I'm driving it, but I feel like I have a bit of social responsibility to not abet the rest of the population in filling the world with ugly cars.
Contemplated Subarus. Had too many friends get burned by head gaskets. And I don't need or want or want to pay for or want the added reliability question with AWD. If the Forester were FWD/RWD only I'd consider it- the '18's still have the MT option.
Contemplated Focususususus. Left when the M/T was only an option on the gas-hog engine and Ford said it was killing off all the sedans next year. Fiesta's too tiny. And I'd rather have a Mazda hecho en Mexico than a Ford Hergestellt in Deutschland.
Bottom line, I want something that I want. A car that's good looking, doesn't use an inordinate amount of fuel, has a good expectation of reliability, is fun to drive, can haul 2 kids and recycling and groceries and (perhaps with a little inventiveness) some lumber. If it's an automatic transmission, it had better be darn super good at everything else. I don't want to break the bank on it- Some place around $20,000 is where I'd like to be. Or less. I want new- I don't want someone else's problems or their beer farts in my seat or their hookers' hair on my carpet. When I see boogers on the dash, I want to know that they're _my_ boogers on the dash...or, at least, my kids' or Mrs VCH's.
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
Could've said all that 3 pages ago and probably avoided a bunch of irrelevant posts... If you want what you want, then you're just going to have to try everything until you figure out which one you want the most. It sounds like you've done a pretty good job of narrowing the finalists down and testing them out so far. At this point, you're talking about very subjective things like styling, the way it feels, backseat head room, or biases for/against particular brands. None of us are going to be able to help you with that stuff. You gotta figure it out on your own. I'm certain you're capable of that, and look forward to your final choice and reasoning behind it.
In reply to STM317 :
Thanks. I intentionally tried not to be too specific initially, in hopes I'd get some good thoughts (not tainting the well and all that) and the resulting discussion has been generally helpful. Unfortunately, like you said, I've done research and driven a few cars and, as the saying goes, there's nothing new under the sun.
My main question was whether VW reliability was still a question mark. Based on the variety of replies concerning that topic, the answer seems to be yes. No one so far has said anything bad about Mazda's reliability.
It's kind of funny, my co-worker who just bought the Bolt started looking at cars about the same time as I did, unbeknownst to each other. We discussed models, trims, etc and I fully thought he (being the thorough engineer) would have waited longer than I did to buy. But then last week he texts me the picture of a silver Bolt, rolling on 18's, loaded up that he picked up for around 34k. The MD and Federal credits put another $10k back in his pocket next April.
He's bought new cars before, though. So it wasn't quite so far of a bridge for him to cross, mentally. There's a part of me that still goes, holy crap, TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS for a car.
If it makes you feel better about Mazda problems my brothers 2010 3 2.0 developed rod knock around 150k. Up until then he had no issues. He replaced with the 2017 3 hatch I mentioned earlier. I haven't researched the new ones reliability.
You'll have no shortage of VW stories although so far from my research the newer 1.8t doesn't share the issues of the old. Motorwise I have heard of rear main seal leaks and walnut blasting the intakes.
I'd recommend trying the sportwagen. If you don't love it then you have your answer of Mazda. If you do love it then at least you have a warranty.
to put some perspective. How long ago was it that a car with 100K on the odometer was considered worn out? Today's cars have never been more reliable or well build than any time in history.
I can't find the video at the moment, but I recently saw one where they were putting the Fiat 500 "issues" in persepective. At 80 some issues per 100 car, it sounds high, until you remember it was not all that long ago that GM was building Camaros with over 600 issues per 100 cars. New cars are SO well screwed together than their few faults are glaring
We're on our 3rd VW TDI since '08, would still be in the first one if it hadn't been totaled by a dumb ass texting and driving.
'09 TDI DSG Jetta, totaled at 101K miles, only non routine maintenance thing I had to replace was a glow plug/cylinder pressure sensor at around 70K miles.
'14 TDI DSG Sportwagen, replaced the Jetta, would still be in it if VW hadn't made us a buyback offer we couldn't refuse during Dieselgate.
'15 TDI DSG Golf bought in Spring of '17. I dang near bought a 2.5, auto, Mazda 3 Hatch, before finding a leftover '16 Autobahn, Performance Pack, DSG, GTI. While working the dealer down on the price of the GTI, VW was allowed to sell their leftover '15 TDIs. I fell in love with the Golf SE, made a ridiculous offer, and they bit. Over a year and 30K miles later, no issues on it either.
The serviceability/lack of front jacking point issue mentioned earlier is solved pretty easily with a pair of $40 Rhino Ramps.
volvoclearinghouse said:
[There's a part of me that still goes, holy crap, TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS for a car. ]
i have that part too.
As usual I'll chime in as a (the?) dissenting voice. I love Mazda's, they are fun to drive, but I have to say all the 3's I've ever been in have been sorely lacking in the NVH department. I'd much much rather go for a VW or Volvo for a DD. The interior fit, finish, materials are all so so much nicer. Also as has been mentioned salt and rust seem to be an issue for Mazda's. Just about every 10 year old Mazda I see on the road has rust ranging from just breaking out to, holy cow, that's still running!! My 08 Volvo (owned since new) and driven through 10 Michigan winters with nothing more than a weekly run through the car wash to re-distribute the salt underneath is still (amazingly ) rust free every where. My neighbors 04 R32 Golf is the same. The only reliability issue I've ever had in 120K miles is the feature where you depress the clutch, turn and release the key to start the engine failed years ago. Now to my horror and exhaustion I have to hold the key in the start position until the car starts, disgusting. I've had many friends with new, nearly new and / older VW's for the last 15 years and contrary to internet lore they have all been totally reliable. Worst issue is B5 platform cars needing new front control arms and iffy fuel gauges on Mk IV Golfs. Conversely other than rust, all 10 year old Mazda's are rattle traps inside.
Note. I'm not anti Mazda, I've had a Miata, Rx7, 323 GTX and would have bought a new Rx8 when they came out if the fuel econ wasn't such a joke. I crossed shopped Mazda speed 3's and 6's when I bought the Volvo, and it won due to the NVH and harsh ride on the 3.
I don't' suppose I could get you too look at Focus ST's or Ford Escapes could I?
I've put 100's of thousands of trouble free miles on VAG products. You have to maintain them. Every one that I've bought new enough to still be under warranty, and left stock, ran flawlessly with just normal maintenance. Even my stage 3 2.7t S4 ran perfectly.
With the enormous warranty they come with now its kinda hard to get hurt by one...
Adrian_Thompson said:As usual I'll chime in as a (the?) dissenting voice. I love Mazda's, they are fun to drive, but I have to say all the 3's I've ever been in have been sorely lacking in the NVH department.
OP's [me] current DD is a '91 Volvo 240 with 214,412 miles on it. Any new car, methinks, is going to be a revelation in terms of NVH.
I do see that Volvo is restyling the V60 for 2019. A 2014-2018 CPO V60 might be a smart buy. No manual trans *le sigh*.
EDIT: just checked. Seats down, a V60 has 48 cubic feet of cargo capacity. The Mazda 3? 47 cubic feet. 
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
I’m sorry wasn’t trying to insult you regarding the math. Just that the Volt seems really expensive until you break it down. if there is still a tax incentive, that drops the price of a new car into the $5000 rangeand that’s math I like.
I get it though. You want what you want and will pay whatever you have to pay
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