New dynamic scoring for autox

Here's what we've been playing with for our club. It is a dynamic system based entirely on driver times -- the cars aren't classed initially. Two people in the same car could end up in different classes based on skill.

We are proposiing five classes -- "STIG", "WILD", "SCORCHIN", "SPICY", and "MILD".

FTD is always scored at 100 points. FTD score contributes to STIG class score.

One "outlier score" can be used if the differential between FTD and the second fastest time is greater than 1.4 seconds, and the differential between the second and third place score is greater than .400 seconds.

Outlier score is added to the WILD class, therefore there could be two 100 point scores in the WILD class.

With the exception of the STIG class, and the MILD class there is a minimum of four cars per class.

A new class will start when the minimum number of cars is reached and the time differential between two cars in an overall ranking of fast time is equal to or greater than .500.

Once all four classes are assigned, all of the remaining cars will be scored in the "mild" class, regardless of time differential.

A car is classed by its fastest raw score -- penalties are then applied to move that car within the RAW time classification.(the penalties do not allow the driver to drop a class).

Fastest car in each class is scored at 100 points, and then every car within that class earns a ratio score of their time against the fastest time in the class.

One thing that we are currently working on is an overall bonus score so that faster cars are always earning more points than slower cars, despite the fact that a class score always earns 100 points. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to do that -- I'm looking to NASCAR for ideas :)

This works for our club -- we generally have a small number of cars compared to bigger clubs, and a much greater variety of types of cars (ranging from a mid-fifties Morgan race car to a new Porsche GT3). Our members don't generally "build" for a class, and as a result it's been hard to find a class-based system that works for our demographic.

I've run sample data from last year that illustrates the idea well. If you are interested in seeing it I could email it to those who want it.

Rob

Wait, wat? This sounds like a worse idea than NASA's classing system....

So what happens when you have one car that's 2 seconds behind the sorchin' class, but 2 seconds ahead of the spicy class? Did they just take 100 points of spicy, or do they get a goosegg of wild?

There's got to be a simpler way.

There is. www.scca.com/solo/

That's funny! The SCCA is to simple what a Greyhound Bus is to lightweight sports car. HA!

It's very well defined where your car is classed, at least. Tell me how NASA/this is any better.

Does FTD earn a trophy that says "I am The Stig!"? I would like that prize!

Really confusing. I've read it twice and still don't really get it.

I always thought a "Bracket Racing" model (like at the drags) would be easy to try with an autox format. The rules are pretty easy to understand.

Make 1 or 2 passes, choose a dial-in for subsequent passes. Car/Driver who gets closest to his/her dial-in wins. If you go over, you bust.

ProblemAddict: That system would actually work. Consistency is a huge showing of talent in autocrossing. Separates the men from the boys. The Dixie Tour this weekend showed me I'm still in diapers.

problemaddict wrote: Really confusing. I've read it twice and still don't really get it. I always thought a "Bracket Racing" model (like at the drags) would be easy to try with an autox format. The rules are pretty easy to understand. Make 1 or 2 passes, choose a dial-in for subsequent passes. Car/Driver who gets closest to his/her dial-in wins. If you go over, you bust.

This would be simpler than the proposed system for sure, but It wouldn't be as simple as bracket drag racing as we know it. Drag strips are always 1/4 or 1/8 mile in a straight line, and as far as I know, always on black top. Bracket racers almost always run the same few tracks frequently so they can get realy good at dialing in thier E/Ts for those venues, and can guess realy good at new venues.

If an auto-x was run at the same location with the same course every time a bracket system would be easy. it still might be easier than the proposed dynamic scoring system, but niether sounds simple. just my $.02

the problem with bracket racing type system is that I always get more familiar with the course as my day progresses...therefore my times get faster.

example from my last event.

1st run 80 2nd run 79 3rd run 76 4th run 73

(granted I may be an outlier, because I was also getting to know the car at the same time)

Yeah - I really wouldn't care for the bracket style, either, as it punishes you for doing better than you expected, and rewards the guys who don't improve all day.

I mean, unless it was run it twice, look at your times, and then you say how much time you think you can shave off... but even then.

Classing is a difficult problem, and I don't think there's ANYONE out there that thinks it's totally balanced outside of a spec series (and even then there's people who'll feel cheated).

I know I find great fault in any classing that puts the AE86 SR5 and GT-S in the same class (I'm looking at you, SCCA).

SpeedTheory wrote: It's very well defined where your car is classed, at least. Tell me how NASA/this is any better.

For our club this could be much better, because we don't have enough participants to run anything remotely similar to the SCCA classes. Our turnout averages 30 cars, and they range across the map. Our members don't build cars for a class, so we really end up with 30 different cars potentially running 30 different classes.

ReverendDexter wrote: So what happens when you have one car that's 2 seconds behind the sorchin' class, but 2 seconds ahead of the spicy class? Did they just take 100 points of spicy, or do they get a goosegg of wild?

Good question -- that didn't happen in the sample data I looked at. Unusual situations such as that seemed to occur at the top of the times (hence the outlier idea), and between the SPICY and MILD classes. As written, they would get the goose egg in your scenario (actually they would get a score out of 100 with their time indexed against the fastest time in the class). They will also get a bonus (TBD) to ensure they still score more points overall than the next class.

I couldn't find an instance of an "outlier" in the middle with any of the data I looked at. But, I suspect we could tweak the "outlier" definition so it could take into account that scenario.

How about this, seperate them all into these classes:

E30

Miata

CiViC

Corvette

It seems like the only people that count are driving these cars anyway.

John Brown wrote: How about this, seperate them all into these classes: E30 Miata CiViC Corvette It seems like the only people that count are driving these cars anyway.

In our club we have one Civic, three Miatas (all prepped to different levels), no E30s, and one Corvette. We'd have to add Jensen-Healey, Lotus Cortina, Toyota MR2, Morgan +4, MGB, FB Rx7, Skyline, Ferrari 330GT, Porsche GT3, LS1 powered Corvair, STi, Rabbit GTI, 240, 240 with Infiniti 4.5 litre and 6 speed, 911SC, S2000 . . .

ZOOMiata wrote:

SpeedTheory wrote: It's very well defined where your car is classed, at least. Tell me how NASA/this is any better.

For our club this could be much better, because we don't have enough participants to run anything remotely similar to the SCCA classes. Our turnout averages 30 cars, and they range across the map. Our members don't build cars for a class, so we really end up with 30 different cars potentially running 30 different classes.

PAX.

ZOOMiata wrote:

John Brown wrote: How about this, seperate them all into these classes: E30 Miata CiViC Corvette It seems like the only people that count are driving these cars anyway.

In our club we have one Civic, three Miatas (all prepped to different levels), no E30s, and one Corvette. We'd have to add Jensen-Healey, Lotus Cortina, Toyota MR2, Morgan +4, MGB, FB Rx7, Skyline, Ferrari 330GT, Porsche GT3, LS1 powered Corvair, STi, Rabbit GTI, 240, 240 with Infiniti 4.5 litre and 6 speed, 911SC, S2000 . . .

I should have added the only people that matter on THIS BOARD... You and I don't count

SpeedTheory wrote:

ZOOMiata wrote:

SpeedTheory wrote: It's very well defined where your car is classed, at least. Tell me how NASA/this is any better.

For our club this could be much better, because we don't have enough participants to run anything remotely similar to the SCCA classes. Our turnout averages 30 cars, and they range across the map. Our members don't build cars for a class, so we really end up with 30 different cars potentially running 30 different classes.

PAX.

Seriously. No need to re-invent the wheel.

The Bracket format is pretty cool too, though. The Doublecross Challenge here in ATL ran that type of format (Best auto-xing experience of my life.)

There was no "breakout" per se, but IIRC, you won money the first day (Qualifying) if you were best in your class. Plus, the PAX was based on all the cars in the class (I think,) so even if one or two were sandbagging, it wouldn't have a huge effect. The classes were a little less specific; i.e., XP, EP, and DM all ran in the "Prep/Mod Class."

At the end of the day, the last 8 or so competitors were a veritable "Who's who" of national competitors. Carpenter took home the trophy, so obviously, the system worked.

PAX didn't do it for us, either.

I have 2 comments. 1. I read the original post several times, and like some other people said, it is really confusing. 2. IMO, competitive autocross cars are bought and prepped for that purpose, anything else, its just for fun, so whatever makes it the most fun is fine.

The SCCA is pretty careful to quickly phase out any older stock class cars that are still competitive, which is probably why alot of the people here dont like the way the cars are classed (among other reasons).

If you wish to see the data let me know -- I will email it to anyone who wants to reflect upon it. It makes much more sense to see the numbers.

How about this?

A=AWD, F = FWD, R = RWD

N = Naturally Aspirated, P = Power Adder (Turbo/Supercharger)

O = Over 2.5L (and rotaries), U = Under 2.5L

Class every car using those three rules. So if a turbo civic shows up he runs FPU. The Ferrari would be RNO, as would the Corvette and GT3. WRX would be APU and the STi would be APO. This could work quite well.

P71 wrote: How about this? A=AWD, F = FWD, R = RWD N = Naturally Aspirated, P = Power Adder (Turbo/Supercharger) O = Over 2.5L (and rotaries), U = Under 2.5L Class every car using those three rules. So if a turbo civic shows up he runs FPU. The Ferrari would be RNO, as would the Corvette and GT3. WRX would be APU and the STi would be APO. This could work quite well.

I can hear the complaining now -- my C4 Corvette is no where near the competitive level of a 911 GT3. The Ferrari is no where near the C4. That's the beauty of the dynamic system -- it's a combo of driver skill and car.