ok ricey or not

im not asking for 105 degree air to cool 120.... im asking 105 degree air to try to cool 160 degree intake plenum that is heating my intake air temp up to 120

Then just do it.

Worst case is you'll need a new hood.

If you're willing to cut a hole in the hood for the sake of experimentation, then go for it. But to answer the original question: will installing a 'functional' scoop on the hood in the hopes it will do what you want is a bit on the ricey side... which I think is what the engineer-guys are trying to get at.

First - a scoop alone is unlikely to do much without ductwork that forces the outside ambient air where you want it to go. That said, you're asking a lot of 105 degree air to get that 160 down to 120. That's just too much of a delta T. Especially if the intake manifold is not designed to be an psuedo air-air heat exchanger.

Second - this is a V6, right? So the intake manifold is sitting in a very hot valley between the heads? IMHO, a 160 intake temp is pretty damn good. If you really want to lower the charge temps, there are more effective ways to do it. V8 guys have used water and methanol injection for decades to cool the intake charge.

Wait what?

If your Maf is reading the air that is coming in and it takes the temperature of this air somewhere near the Maf, then it doesn't matter what you do further on down the line. Basically, the ecu uses these two items to determine "how much air" is in the system. Without a leak, this IS the amount of air in the system, regardless of manifold temp.

You will have the same amount of air in the system which relates to a specific amount of fuel NO MATTER WHAT.

Basically, if the MAF and temperature sensor are working properly, you could heat the air in the manifold to 200F or cool it to 50 F and it will have zero effect on your AFR (okay, it will have an effect for a very small amount of time like 1/2 second or less).

Rob

im going purely off the readings i am obtaining. and the afr is fluctuating by .3 which is something that does not happen in the winter. and only difference is alot more of heat change.

the intake manifold sits over bank one curling up and over. no open valley

KATYB wrote: im going purely off the readings i am obtaining. and the afr is fluctuating by .3 which is something that does not happen in the winter. and only difference is alot more of heat change.

Is that with a WB sensor, and with non OEM tune?

Not sure how you are determining that it's running rich in the summer.

Which it may be doing- just to keep the exhaust components cool, without seeing data, it's hard to see what is going on.

Is this stock, OEM tune, OEM sensors on the 6? Which basically means it's the same as a taurus, to me, at least.

Running with hot intake isn't a problem, the biggest effect actually is reduction of spark advance, due to knock problems. I've run cars that do a normal emissions cycle run at 70F up to engine temps of 230 and air temps over 160. It's designed to be able to run that way.

oem sensors piggy back computer. wideband sensors one on bank one and one on bank2.

not even close to oem tune... oem tune is terrible going 9.9:1 afr at wot above 5k on the factory tune.

KATYB wrote: not even close to oem tune... oem tune is terrible going 9.9:1 afr at wot above 5k on the factory tune.

It does that for a reason. Mainly to keep things cool, although I would opinion that Mazda tends to take things a little too far sometimes, but that's just an opinion. Terrible is relative- to me, terrible would be to see the cat temps go above 1800F, and ruin them, Mazda is trying to keep them under 1700F, and probably keep other exhaust parts under 1650F.

So what you are saying is that the tune you are running is not robust to hot intake air, and you want to cool the air so that the tune does not drift off- is that correct?

And what you see is that the OEM sensors no longer cycle back and forth, as intended, when the intake gets hot, but stay at a "high" voltage, and that rich signal is reflected in the WB sensors on each bank?

I'm just trying to clarify what you are trying to fix....

KATYB wrote: im going purely off the readings i am obtaining. and the afr is fluctuating by .3 which is something that does not happen in the winter. and only difference is alot more of heat change.

For how long do the readings stay .3 (Higher or lower AFR's)? You say fluctuate, does this mean the number bounces around or just goes to a higher or lower value and stays there?

Is it possible you have an intake leak and when you spray water on the intake, it either partially seals the leak or lets water into the system (either could change AFRs).

How do read the AFRs and spray water on the intake? Is this at idle with the hood up?

just cooling the intake and then a full throttle pull. idle afr is 15.1 and doesnt change its under wot where as with a cooled intake mani or only within first 15 minutes of driving afr under wot is 12.6 it creeps to 12.9 and sometimes 13.0 once heat has gotten through the intake mani.

may be correct on why mazda did the tune in the first place but the frequency with which oem cats fail makes me think differently.... seeing plenty clog up at 50k miles and ruin engines makes me think it was an oversight in the tuneing

switching of the oem sensors still works properly. no codes being thrown. timing does begin to get pulls once it reaches 12.8 tho hence my problems... and it runs best at 12.5 to 12.6

Wait.... ...what?

This doesn't make sense!

Heat is causing your car to run LEANER??!!

So, there is less particles of air getting into the motor (less dense due to heat), but for some reason even less gas also? hmmmm....

This doesn't add up at all.

sorry i mean it goes to 12.2 or 12.3..... typing as i woke up and still taking lortab and other stuff. so it goes richer..... sorry.

KATYB wrote: may be correct on why mazda did the tune in the first place but the frequency with which oem cats fail makes me think differently.... seeing plenty clog up at 50k miles and ruin engines makes me think it was an oversight in the tuneing

That's more a problem with Mazda, since I'm not aware of the same powertrain having frequent premature catalyst failures for our car.

Anway, so what you are trying to fix is a WOT problem, making the engine run a little richer after a hot soak, yes?

And the tune still uses the MAF/partial OEM, but uses the MAF to measure air flow?

(BTW, the reason I'm trying to be more specific is that the more we dig into the specifics, the more it may either bring up ideas, make you think about others suggestions, or that the hole in the hood may work...)

If you are still using the MAF, and a partial OEM, AFAIK, there's not a downstream temp sensor- it uses the one in the MAF sensor, and then comes up with a correction based on the air temp, engine temp, and time.

Not sure if any power is being lost or given away from 12.5 to 12.2- although the richer fuel does allow for more agressive spark, since it's less prone to knock. But the .3 a/f is pretty infignificant. But another realistic question is: "is the measured difference intentional, or an air measurement error?"

But a realistic question should always be- does it matter? It may or may not.

Before I cut a hole in my good hood, I would try to buy a used one from a junk yard and cut that one. Try it out and cut the good one if that works.

In reply to alfadriver:

alfa what vehicle is it that you have with same powertrain? i was unaware of any ford vehicle with the same powertrain... the fusion is very similar but not the same. and in all truth this probably does not matter. but with my limited ability to work right now i need something to keep me busy.

ait temp is only handled by the sensor in the maf.... im sure i could move to a different sensor but not without going to a complete standalone which i do not want to do.

KATYB wrote: In reply to alfadriver: alfa what vehicle is it that you have with same powertrain?

Alfa has... let's just say a friend in the business. If it's Ford related you can pretty much trust what he's saying as the engineers perspective.

back on topic, I agree that you're trying to fix a problem that you really don't have.

A 55 shot of nitrous would bring them charge temps waaay down, and you could cover your car with "NAAAAAWWSSSSSS" stickers like a real ricer.

poopshovel wrote: A 55 shot of nitrous would bring them charge temps waaay down, and you could cover your car with "NAAAAAWWSSSSSS" stickers like a real ricer.

I was going to say that you could go whole hog - aim for higher intake temps, that's where the real power is. They even make intake air heaters designed for just that purpose, plus a few side effects... they look something like this:

tuna lol!!!!!!! u know what if i didnt struggle with traction as it is now id think about it... also i have trouble keeping things going slow enough now so thats a bad idea. once i can perform the mature driver modification ill get a turbo car again but it wont be fwd. ive learned that when your in second gear and putting your foot to the floor will cause the tires to spin except on perfect pavement its best to not add more power.

Just got a budget "JDM" intercooler kit. Basically its an intercooler made by a no name company. It may help cool things down regardless of running boost. 200.00.