P0341 2012 Honda CRV - NTF by dealer, but its back (after $450)

So, I don't have time to work on my cool stuff, certainty not going to blow valuable time working on the appliance, especially when it could be anything. So off to the dealer.

The symptoms, dropping gas mileage, from 31 to 22. Car makes new struggling noise (intermittently) when accelerating , Cruise stops working (intermittently), while steady state driving intermittently feels like you have a gusty head wind. Pending code p0341 and finally check engine light and others, and logged p0341.. Reset and it comes back. 

Found the fist thing to do is an oil change and see what happens, off to the dealer for a genuine Honda filter (wanted to be sure not to get a counterfeit). and a early oil change. Clear code, and its back.

Dealer this morning. First 150 bucks gets me a no trouble found diagnosis. Dealer wants to reset it send me on my way and see if it comes back, and oh yeah need brakes too (knew that was coming). Informed them its been reset more than once and it comes back, they asked about last oil change, let them know just done, came out clean, and early in hopes it would fix this and it was not low previously. and no luck on it being better.

For 300 more they can change the VTC Oil Control Valve, its the only thing they think can be the issue other than VTC Actuator Problem | TSB 09-010, which they stated I don't want to do (As I have been trying to get this done for some time and no dealers in the area wants to call me back with parts availability and how long they need the car, I think they don't want to do it) and he also stated its 2K.

So I gave the the OK for the 300 work. On the 8 mile maybe drive from the dealer thought I felt it coming on but figured it was me looking for problems as the cruise was working and no struggle noise. Leaving work, different story, it was all there except the check engine,. scanned when I got home and the code is pending. I know the check engine will be on well before I get to work tomorrow.

Can it be as simple as an intermittently cam sensor ? Do they fail intermittently thus the NTF diagnosis?. Do I need to just pull the trigger on another 2K, lot of money I would rather not spend, but if it fixes it great, but if it does not so great.

What do the experts here say ? Info on the web is all over the place.

Thanks !

Honda usually has some solid forums.  I've spent a lot of time on the Odyssey and Pilot forums, so I would assume there has to be a good one for the CR-V. I would also check the CR-V FB groups, as well (and do a search on the TSB). That should give you a better idea if performing the TSB will actually solve your problem.

In reply to dj06482 (Forum Supporter) :

Was looking ino the TSB before the pandemic, and could not get info from dealers on performing the service then. Gave up on it since I did not have to drive into the office (reduced weekly driving by about 375 miles). When the pandemic ended I made the calls again, always with a we'll call you back. 

Any way the TSB has been out there since 2013 (maybe earlier) revised 5 times (last in 2016 I believe) and  still looks like its is hit or miss for the issue it is actually for (start up rattle).  I am a bit concerned using it for a off  label fix  and possibly resulting in neither issue being corrected (especially at the figure they tossed out today).  The current issue is the concerning one, would hate to pull out with plenty of room for half throttle and find I only have the acceleration of 20% throttle.

Are the miles high enough that the timing chain might be stretched, or tensioner/guide could be bad?

That might be contributing to your rattle on startup too.

You can read the actual Honda documents for that TSB here. The part is about $175, and they say it should be billed at 2 hrs, so $2k seems way out of line to me unless your dealer is quoting other work too "while they're in there".

A little Google fu provides the following:

"For troubleshooting the P0341 code, the service manual starts with several tests of the VTC (variable valve timing) actuator and the VTC oil control solenoid using the Honda Diagnostic System (HDS), including a VTC status driving test with the HDS connected. If those tests pass, then the next step is to inspect and possibly replace the camshaft chain and tensioner."

https://www.crvownersclub.com/threads/replacing-camshaft-position-sensor-code-p0341.223580/

Absolutely do not do a $2k repair unless it has been diagnosed successfully as the root cause. 

In reply to STM317 :

156k miles. They insuated  the chain is part of tsb, I know its not. They may have added the chain to the job do to the p0341. Guessing it could be stretched. Not knowing the cause, the may be shot gunning it. 

I would do it, if its going to fix the issue. But would be not happy if it was still there and they then change the sensors and that fixed it.

Its the not knowing that counts.... (70s psa? - the not???). Yea, I am that old.

Thanks for the info all, keeping comming

 Will check back in when I hit the dealer around 11 to see if there's any more.

Find an independent repair shop with a good diagnostic capability and take your business elsewhere.

At that mileage you need a chain/guide/TENSIONER/sprocket job 

The TSB applies or rather is intended for engines well under powertrain warranty that likely do not necessarily need the chain replaced and yes the sprocket can be changed without pulling the front cover. That's where the 2.0 FRT comes from. 

I'm not a CRV expert, but I haven't seen anywhere in this thread where the dealer actually diagnosed anything, and that's a prerequisite for doing work. Find the independent Honda shop in your town and have them take a look. 

At that mileage the chain is long overdue.  If it has a bad rattle on startup after it has been sitting, replace the intake sprocket.  Honda parts only.  When the sprocket wears more it bleeds out faster and you might get a cold start rattle every time.

If it has had a cold start rattle for the past 60-80k (educated guess: they generally fail at the 80-100k mark) it may have jumped time, too.  The intake sprocket finding the limits of its stops can make the teeny little chain bounce over the teeth.

Cannot count how many of these I have done 

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Where are you pete? Want to do another one ?

Would a worn cam chain cause an intermittent problem?  Could the OP have two issues (ie: cam position sensor)?

Ive seen a couple of these, IIRC it was a timing job pretty much every time. 

In reply to mfennell :

I have never had one bad enough to set codes.  But.  I will assume that one of the consequences of having an active '341 is that the computer will go to a fixed cam timing angle and possibly go to batch fire injection and spark.

I used the tsb for a instruction guide (steps torque etc.) When I replaced my actuator with a new Honda one. I was getting the rattle at cold start intermittently. I did guides chains and tensioner while I was in there and compared parts to old: everything looked great but the old chain was notably stretched. I have no way of testing spring strength but I took the actuator pulley apart and it looked perfect. 

Reassembled rattle remains gone. Mileage was 180,000. 

I would look for another shop/garage and consider chain/guide/tensioner/actuator all at once for peace of mind. It's possible you have more going on, but chain/pully/tensioner are known wear items.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to mfennell :

I have never had one bad enough to set codes.  But.  I will assume that one of the consequences of having an active '341 is that the computer will go to a fixed cam timing angle and possibly go to batch fire injection and spark.

Ah, that makes perfect sense. 

Can it be the battery ? (and more info)

Last Thursday, lots of driving to get last minute Christmas presents (yeah, I know. my excuse.... single guy) so there was a lot of stops also. After the third or 4th stop, check engine light goes out and car is ruining like new. Light has never gone off by itself before (don't worry its now back). As this was drive, 15 -20 minutes off, repeat, compared to sit overnight, drive, work 9 hours, start drive, home, sit 15 y hours repeat.  I checked the Battery voltage, it sits at 12.4 minutes after a drive, but as soon as a slight load is placed on it (accessories position) it drops to 11.7 and I am sure lower when cranked (torque not fast enough to catch the dip, or maybe the BT reader drops when cranked).  Have not has a chance to check it first thin in the morning after sitting 14-16 hours, but guessing it would be below the 12.4 with no load, maybe even as low as the 11.7.

This added to the I can have the issue leaving work and after about 2 mins of running, I can drop it in neutral, kill and restart the engine, and issue gone (chk eng light still on).

I did see a post from 1 individual on the net that a new battery solved is P0341. That added to the run 2, kill, restart fixing it seems to add up (bad science). Guessing the run gets some juice in the battery and the restart at a higher voltage resets the ECM with correct data from the sensors ?   

So there's that, and there is this from the dealer.

They finally got back to me Friday night about my return Tuesday for more info on the proposed job. Chain, guides, the TSB, $1500, but no guarantee that this would fix it. At the time the check engine had not come back as had not fired up since Thursday driving.

Put the car on my Battery Minder this morning after a 15 minute drive (bat at 12.4v, no load) and its been about 3 hours and the minder is still in charge mode. I had expected it to go to the maintenance mode in 15 mins or so, especially after just being driven but it has not. 

Thoughts on the battery being the cause. I had not expected it as the car cranks strong.

Thanks again and I am on the hunt for a good independent in my area. 

Car computers are very sensitive to voltage.  Had computer system issues with several cars due to low voltage, not sure why but it was true.  On one car the battery was perfect but the ignition switch contacts were old, causing a voltage loss there.

Low and bad batteries cause all manner of issues for modern cars, Honda included. 
 

I would also recommend a chain and tensioner replacement. They stretch especially with long OCI's. We saw this a lot with the higher mileage first gen tsx. Replaced a fair number of those. 

I am not saying it is the battery, but a good battery is a solid foundation for the electronics.  Cars are electrically a very noisy place with all of the loads coming and going, solenoids adding voltage spikes when they close (metal moving through a winding creates voltage, who'd have thought?) and a weak battery is less able to damp all that out.  You can see the difference between an old and new battery in the system's voltage ripple generated by the alternator!  This is why I suck up the weight penalty and put the biggest mammajamma battery I can fit/can afford, prevents self induced issues.

Tl;dr: probably not but you need a good battery regardless so replacing the battery is still a good move.

Pete ...would a 2014 Accord have the same intake sprocket bleed down issue as the 2012 CRV in question here?  I have a cold start racket in what sounds like the top end for a few seconds at startup only when sitting overnight or longer since as long as I can recall.  Bought the car new, but as it was my wife's to drive until recently, I didn't pay much attention.  At 160k miles now, leave it be, or take action?  I alway attributed the racket to direct injection at startup, but now am wondering based on your comments above.  Thanks in advance.

In reply to einy (Forum Supporter) :

The issue happens with all K24s eventually, old style and Earth Dreams style.   Fortunately I have had better luck with removing the sprocket with the camshaft in place on those, on the older engines I usually had to pull the cam/sprocket assembly off and fight on the bench.