PAX silliness

One of my old Scion friends finally came to an autocross that I could make as well, been trying to meet up all year. Now he has a Hyundai Veloster (non-turbo) and I have the Abarth.

We managed to be in the same run group (he STF and me STS) & grid together so we could laugh and joke about our skills. We compared times a few runs and I was usually a little faster.

Results got posted last night, I was faster every single run, but because his PAX multiplier is higher he "beat" me. Made for a good chuckle.

Why is that silly?

He was better relative to STF than you were relative to STS.

alfadriver wrote: Why is that silly? He was better relative to STF than you were relative to STS.

Truth.. That's why the PAX is there.

Jerry wrote: Results got posted last night, my car was faster every single run, but because his PAX multiplier is higher he "beat" me. Made for a good chuckle.

Could you repeat your fast times in a Veloster?

PAX silliness?

My STS Miata should be faster in expected performance to my friends BS C5 corvette on the same tires!

PAX is useful if you're in a class of one for comparison/tracking progress over a season, but agree its silly to say "I'm faster than you" based on PAX.

Now finishing above halfway through the field in RAW time in an STF car is kind of impressive. Halfway in PAX, not so much.

I run STF and even I want a faster car eventually. I can drive it fast, but could drive a faster car faster

So SMF eventually may be an option...

That's what Pax is about, trying to compare times with different classed drivers and cars. It's not perfect, it's how we determine how much faster the driver is over another with two completely different cars (ie H Stock Civic to a CSP Miata).

In reply to flatlander937:Why not the Street prepared classes, they have a better pax.

lots of folk love PAX … if that was the only way I could go autoX'ing I'd find something else to do with my time and my car

flatlander937 wrote: PAX is useful if you're in a class of one for comparison/tracking progress over a season, but agree its silly to say "I'm faster than you" based on PAX. Now finishing above halfway through the field in RAW time in an STF car is kind of impressive. Halfway in PAX, not so much. I run STF and even I want a faster car eventually. I can drive it fast, but could drive a faster car faster So SMF eventually may be an option...

Yeah, our local end of the year trophy is PAX based, but you're not going to get near the top just because your class has a good PAX. Too many great drivers in the region for that. I'm lucky that I can average top 20 in STF locally PAX, top 30-ish RAW. give me a small crappy lot and I'll take 2nd in PAX and top 10 RAW....

Being classed higher due to the differential my miata came with (STR vs STS) was enough to leave a bad taste in my mouth in regards to the whole PAX thing.
In a more general sense, sure, great.

SnowMongoose wrote: Being classed higher due to the differential my miata came with (STR vs STS) was enough to leave a bad taste in my mouth in regards to the whole PAX thing. In a more general sense, sure, great.

^^^Truth right here^^^

Just wait till you bolt a set of Hoosiers on that same car, CSP city. But a true CSP car is light years ahead of a misclassed STS/STR Miata wearing zippy sneakers.

KyAllroad wrote:

SnowMongoose wrote: Being classed higher due to the differential my miata came with (STR vs STS) was enough to leave a bad taste in my mouth in regards to the whole PAX thing. In a more general sense, sure, great.

^^^Truth right here^^^ Just wait till you bolt a set of Hoosiers on that same car, CSP city. But a true CSP car is light years ahead of a misclassed STS/STR Miata wearing zippy sneakers.

And then if you decide to do a 1.0L Ecoboost swap, you'll be mercilessly fed to beasts in XP.

But this isn't really an issue with the PAX system, so much as it is with rules, classing, and competitiveness...Namely drivers not being willing-and-able to use the rules to their advantage when they actually want to be competitive in a given class...Something that is required to be competitive at pretty much every level of every sport, motorized or otherwise.

PAX is simply a statistical analysis based measurement that either makes sense to you or it doesn't...However, there is no harm to those of the latter persuasion in having it available for those of the former.

Mr_Clutch42 wrote: In reply to flatlander937:Why not the Street prepared classes, they have a better pax.

Mainly because my only gripe with the 2 is lack of acceleration. I want to swap a 2.0l or 2.5l MZR into the car pretty badly.

Its not about getting a better PAX, its about wanting to go faster, just in general. SMF has the bonus of me actually being able to hit min weight(with a 2.5 or my 1.5+FI) without needing aftermarket seats, more lightening, etc to get there. I can make up for it with power :)

I HAVE given FSP a lot of thought though, I can basically throw a diff in my car and add DOT slicks and be there mostly. I'm not sure I want to spend $1k+ on a diff when I do ultimately want to replace the whole trans during an MZR swap. Or could just turbo the 1.5 but I like the idea of N/A power/reliability.

KyAllroad wrote:

SnowMongoose wrote: Being classed higher due to the differential my miata came with (STR vs STS) was enough to leave a bad taste in my mouth in regards to the whole PAX thing. In a more general sense, sure, great.

^^^Truth right here^^^ Just wait till you bolt a set of Hoosiers on that same car, CSP city. But a true CSP car is light years ahead of a misclassed STS/STR Miata wearing zippy sneakers.

Neither of these issues have anything to do with PAX. They have to do with the classing rules and your choices. The fact that you may not run against anyone else in your class, which gives you a pax index has nothing to with it.

PAX is great for gambling with your friends in completely different cars. It's like an extra avenue for smack talk!

The fastest raw time is the winner. Anything else is farse.

I was explaining the challenge to a regular at the Moultrie autocross where we were testing the Mumpkin. He was curious what class we were going to be in and he kept explaining why PAX was needed for autocrosses. I dont think he ever did understand that that the Challenge is all just one big murky pool only limited by budget and insanity.

In reply to MrJoshua:

It is hard to explain that- including to members of my own team way back when.

When you tell them it's not about who is the fastest driver (where PAX and/or classes are important), it's what's the fastest car for $20XX, few get it. That's when the whole money cheating thing starts coming up...

Such different animals.

Yeah, our local end of the year trophy is PAX based, but you're not going to get near the top just because your class has a good PAX.

I once PAXd 13th out of 70ish in my H-stock Dodge Dynasty. But that was back before MINI happened to H stock and even THAT was a long time ago!! It's nothing like that anymore, from what i can tell. Haven't been in a long time.