R-12 You Kidding Me?

This is getting ridiculous...

I picked up an old late-80's truck to pull the engine and transmission from for my $2013 car, and am planning on scrapping it after I pull what I need. Conveniently, it has a complete A/C system, which is nice since I plan to use my $2013 car as a more normal vehicle after the event, so having the full system to transfer into it (though I'll have to work out the belt routing, which may not allow me to keep the serpentine with dropping both A/C and P/S...) is a nice bonus.

BUT... the system still has a decent charge in it, and seemingly has not been converted to R-134 (still has the old screw-on valves and not the quick-disconnects that are present after a conversion. So I need to find a place/someone to evacuate the system before I take it all apart to move it to its new home.

But NOBODY that I've checked with locally still has the equipment for R-12. I'm still checking around, but it's getting stupid.

Since we often deal with older cars, some of you have to have encountered this before. How have you handled it?

Certainly NOT by venting it into the atmosphere....

old systems do tend to leak...

still have an r12 machine at the shop

http://www.automotivetoolsonline.com/CPS-Products-ADK1234-R134a-Adapter-Kit_p_10577.html

My shop decided that once our current supply of R-12 is out, the machine is getting retired. So not surprised that not many shops have the equipment anymore.

What happens if I take this loose? OOOPS....

(and let's not get into the JUNK science behind the ZOMG EOTWAWKI R12 thing.)

Check with the local tech school to see if they still have their old R12 machine. I know our school still has one sitting dusty in the back corner of the tool room. Being a state agency per say they rarely get rid of anything and it just sits there.

Due to expense of putting new/refurbished R-12 back in, convert it to r134a, fixing that large leak in the process.

Pretty soon R1234yf will render R134a equipment obsolete.

Part of the reason is to do with the cradle to grave responsibility enforced by the EPA. Once you evacuate a system into a recovery tank, you are responsible for its disposal. Matter not a wit that you turn it over to a recovery company. You must show the EPA inspectors proof of the destructions of your personal refrigerant molecules.

EPA region 3 inspectors came through my area some years ago, and fined the heck out of a number of shops, scrap yards and disposal facilities for violation of this. Brought all forms of refrigerant recovery to a screeching halt.

Pretty much all scrap yards and like require refrigeration systems to be vented and the piping to be removed before they will accept the item.

Those yards that have freon recovery tanks will not dispose of them or allow them to be reclaimed because of the liability. Many have buried the ones not on record.

It's been some years since EPA came through, so some of this is starting to relax again, but not if the scrap yard or repair shop has anyone that remembers the sweep from years ago.

In reply to Ashyukun:

I have an R-12 recovery machine. It has an electrical issue and no longer works, but you can have it if you want to repair it. I care as much about the environment as anyone, but having worked in the air conditioning business for many years, I have a couple observations. One, I'm not sure we know the effects, if any, of R-12 on the environment. We THINK we do, but I'm not sure we really do. 134A was supposed to be the savior, and now it's been identified as being a greenhouse gas also. A couple years ago everyone in my industry was working on CO2 systems, and you know what they are saying about that now (not that I agree or disagree).
When I was wrenching for a living, we not only blew R-12 into the atmosphere, we'd spray it on shafts to aid the installation of bearings, or to free up something that was seized, etc... I'm not saying it was the right thing to do, but after all of that, blowing off one more 2 lb system isn't going to make any difference, so unless you want to re-use the R-12....

Dr. Hess wrote: What happens if I take this loose? OOOPS.... (and let's not get into the JUNK science behind the ZOMG EOTWAWKI R12 thing.)

Come on, the R12 problem is nowhere near as complex as global warming, it punches holes right through the ozone layer so let's not release it mmmkay?

Just as VOCs are generally toxic and extremely harmful to most life on earth. Not complicated.

GameboyRMH wrote:

Dr. Hess wrote: What happens if I take this loose? OOOPS.... (and let's not get into the JUNK science behind the ZOMG EOTWAWKI R12 thing.)

Come on, the R12 problem is nowhere near as complex as global warming, it punches holes right through the ozone layer so let's not release it mmmkay? Just as VOCs are generally toxic and extremely harmful to most life on earth. Not complicated.

You think.

I'm watching to see how this turns out. I have a 1991 VW GTI in the garage that's still got some pressure in the R12 system. When I get it roadworthy I'd like the AC to work.

GameboyRMH wrote: Just as VOCs are generally toxic and extremely harmful to most life on earth. Not complicated.

When did that happen?

I accidentally cut into the a/c system when i was disassembling the Escort with a sawzall. Didn't think it would still have a full charge since the A/C hadn't worked the entire time i had owned it.

foxtrapper wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: Just as VOCs are generally toxic and extremely harmful to most life on earth. Not complicated.

When did that happen?

Well I can't find when the negative health effects were first discovered, but that's always been the case:

http://toxtown.nlm.nih.gov/text_version/chemicals.php?id=31

You need a backyard, a respirator, and a wrench. And then...

All I can tell you is that a buddy and I cracked open an R12 system about 15-20 years ago just for grins and giggles and got big facefulls of that stuff. I can't say that it was a pleasant experience, but it definitely impaired perception and function for a short period of time.

I put some stuff called Freeze 12 in my FB RX-7's R-12 system. It was cheapish, easily available, and claimed that it didn't require any massive changes to the AC system. It worked pretty well for a while, but apparently I had more than one leak in the system so after it sat for a couple seasons while I did some bodywork and paint, the Freeze 12 leaked out and I haven't bothered trying to fix it again since. Honestly, mainly because of availability, if I ever do actually repair the AC, I'll probably go ahead and convert it over to R-134a and have a shop do it right.

GameboyRMH wrote:

foxtrapper wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: Just as VOCs are generally toxic and extremely harmful to most life on earth. Not complicated.

When did that happen?

Well I can't find when the negative health effects were first discovered, but that's always been the case: http://toxtown.nlm.nih.gov/text_version/chemicals.php?id=31

Some are indeed toxic, known in EPA speak as TOC (Toxic Organic Compound). They make up a small fraction of the entire VOC spectrum.

In reply to wae:

Better do those 134 conversions soon, because as was stated above, R1234yf is coming soon, and I'm sure it's the miracle refrigerant to save the world....Just like R134-A was.

Accidents do happen.

I wonder if there's a way to convert straight from R12 to R1234yf, I'd like to do that on the 'rolla if the opportunity comes up, but right now the R12 system is safely contained and working fine.

The mechanism where R12 bonds to ozone is pretty well understood. Now, the mechanism for how 2lbs of it it gets from sea level to 10km up isn't totally clear, but when it was every tom dick and harry venting 20 pounds of it a month it was a huge problem. Yes your 2lbs is a small drop in a big sea but it is something. Just like E36 M3ting once in a stream that you're using for drinking water might not be a big deal, do you really want to do it?