Rules By Comittee a $2014 Thread

In reply to nocones:

+1. Only thing I would change is that parts can be sold off the vehicle (or donor vehicle) to recoup the full purchase price. Parts from parts cars, piles, etc should all count towards the budget at fair market value.

tuna55 wrote:

JoeyM wrote: more crazy-awesome I want to see vehicles that make your jaw drop

I'm with this guy, this is the stuff that gets me opening the mag

+1.

Since you were offended that I didn't quote your entire post (since when is that an issue....I quoted what I was reponding to) I've put the entire thing in here. I'm still only replying to the bits that I care about.

Ranger50 wrote:

JoeyM wrote:

Ranger50 wrote: RE: Fabrication I hate to even really write this because it is a double edged sword, but if your idea doesn't fit your "tub" without becoming a skinned shell of its former self, it should be illegal. If I can hammer it to make it work, OK and maybe even a few welds to cover the stretch cracks. But outside of rust repair on floors, everything else is illegal, unless it's another vehicle piece being welded in. I'm looking at this from the drag racing side of what "stock suspension" racing has become. Some of these cars have become essentially "stock" body pro mods because of the fabrication. Fox body Mustangs have become multiple hole 4 links, same with the GM G-bodies. A lot of the rules are thinly written to allow the most competition to show up, but in turn make it so the deepest pocket, OOTB thinker win. I believe if you start with an Isetta chassis, you keep the Isetta chassis, not plopping it down on some Model A rails with whatever done to them, for example.

I'm totally against that. Andy can out fabricate most people on this board. Why do you want to prevent awe inspiring things like this? [ andy's yellow volksrod ] model A chassis+bug body+37 chevy grill+circle track swap meet engine

Because the yellow "Bug" is nothing more then a run of the mill street rod to me. So, where is the "awesome fabrication" in it, from the bleachers view?

The awesome is taking a 1960s bug and changing the roofline/deck line to look like a 1930s ford. Oh, and the little detail that the rules at the time stated that the fenders had to be present, so he chopped them up and used their metal to change the body.....The fenders are present, in a new location.

there's also the little bit about the floors and transmission tunnel being made out of sheet metal from washing machines. You may not be interested in street rods, but that car inspired ALL my body panel construction ideas. I would not find anything even mildly interesting about "But outside of rust repair on floors, everything else is illegal."

Here's the deal: If you don't like fabrication, then build the car you want with bold on mods or whatever suits your fancy; just don't pretend that we all are going to be excited about the same kind of build that you are. (...and yes, cut out the rust and weld in a patch panel.....just don't expect anybody to say OMG!!! That is AMAZING!!!) The rules allow people to build the kind of car they like. I want to see insane how-did-you-think-of-THAT builds with amazing fabrication, and frankenstein monsters stitched together out of parts that no engineer ever dreamed belonged together....that's what inspires me to try. Not your cup of tea? Build what is. Just don't try to limit the competition to your style of cars.

poopshovel wrote: ... don't cry that guys like the Cheaperral guys, Andy Nelson, Nashco, etc, are somehow less "Grassroots" for bringing a nuclear weapon to a little girl slappy-fight.

Dude, I was just going to +1 this bit, then I saw you +1'ed my (Joey's) crap. Now I just think we're soul mates. I'll tell SWMBO.

I watch this all from afar and have a few points i live in B.C Canada and have been involved in racing pretty much all my life,as a kid watching my dad oavl track race,as a youg adult crewing on a radical offset super modified to more recently placing well in the quad c west division super stock autocross class, and I hold a scca senior race licience and run a 70 Datsun 510 road race car in local scca and cacc events.

I have built a lot of race cars in my life and have never had one cost $20XX the way your budget works it is so easy to cheat

1 there are no $500.00 corvettes or porcshes for that matter

2 I live in a forigen country and even up here we fix e bay auctions {for the right price}

3 make it truly a budget race and all would have more fun

4 I love reading about the challange and think it is a great event but please dont think your readers are stupid we know how much it costs to build cars because we do build cars

5 My super stock auto cross car is a 91 corvette with a 600 hp 590 ft lb torque 406 small block wild wood brakes 315-30-18 a 6 hoosiers on all 4 corners race weight with me in it 2900 lbs, runs the 1/4 in 11.40 at 120. if any one would like to see i can do a 2013 budget for this car in a couple of hours i have a bunch of friends that will help me out with that {see my avatar see the car}

6 thats all i have sorry for bitching if you made it real it would be more fun

PS It is more fun to drive a slow car fast that it is to drive a fast car slow

danvan wrote: 5 My super stock auto cross car is [blah, blah, corvette, blah, blah] if any one would like to see i can do a 2013 budget for this car in a couple of hours i have a bunch of friends that will help me out with that {see my avatar see the car}

I believe what you're implying is that you could fabricate a budget sheet that would be fictional, but allow you to compete. Bring the car. Your 1/4 time is still slower than Andy's bug

BTW, cheap 'vettes do exist. They usually look like turds, but enough elbow grease can change that.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/2013-rules-have-been-posted/62581/page4/

poopshovel wrote:

icaneat50eggs wrote: are there $1913 c4's out there? If so, I need to find one.

I've posted piles of them in the Classifieds, for all the suck-vette haters. Not surprisingly, all the "If you can find me a $1k C4, I'll buy 10 of them" E36 M3-talkers talk E36 M3 because they are full of E36 M3. EX: $2k all day: http://atlanta.craigslist.org/wat/cto/3716471052.html http://atlanta.craigslist.org/sat/cto/3672065407.html http://atlanta.craigslist.org/eat/cto/3653621808.html http://macon.craigslist.org/cto/3699011053.html ...and that's just complete rust-free atlanta cars. If they were pulling $3k, they'd be sold. I'm guessing 15 $100 bills and a good negotiator would grab any one of those.

I love these threads. Reminds me of the good old days.

"There's no berkeleying way they built that for $2002!" I remember dozens of comments like that. Waaaaaah. Cry me a river. Always from someone who is too cheap to spend a few hundred bucks on a used MIG welder and buys their sockets from Harbor Freight.

Formula for success: put together a team of talent. Trying to do it all by yourself, unless you start two years ahead of time, is asking for disappointment. There's a million things to do when building a car, and the ideas of 3 or 4 people put together will come up with far more creativity than just one person. Add in endless nights and weekends in the garage doing nothing else, then travel 12+ hrs only to be rained on for 3 straight days. All for the hope of a $20 trophy and a brief bit of fame in a car magazine.

If you're not doing it for fun, camaraderie, and trying new things, you've got the wrong attitude.

I forgot to add that these guys sold off the inner door skins of their vette to recoup some of the money....and their fabbed replacements looked good

I'm not going to get into the bickering, but I do have a few suggestions/comments to try to keep the challenge relevant. These suggestions have nothing to do with any projects I'm working on or me bitching about what I don't like for my own benefit.

1- Stop adding various allowances. The further you drive the price of admission up (because these allowances still hit the wallets of the builders) the fewer participants you'll get. At this point, it's really the $4k challenge which is ridiculous if you expect to get a high volume of quality cars on an annual basis. The further the price goes up, you'll see fewer cars show up, more repeats and less quality fabrication work. Go back to the original if it's on the car, it counts, including safety equipment

2- Have a real tech inspection. Do this to make sure that dummies that show up with a horribly unsafe cars because they didn't want to spend budget money do not get to compete. One year, I didn't realize my seatbelt was still in the bed of my truck and not on the car and I passed the Challenge tech inspection. (yes, the belt went in before we ran).

3- Don't lose focus on the racing/functionality piece. I repeatedly see people argue that the Challenge is not about winning or competing, but it's the wild, cool stuff that shows up and the people. The community is awesome and if I were to miss one, it's the group of people/fellow competitors that I'd really miss, but let's remember that the point of the challenge is for low buck racing. I understand the you want to get magazine content out of it, but early on it was who could build a race car that could drag, autox and look good. I get the feeling it's swinging to who can show up with the oddest, most unusual car or the car that looks the coolest, with less regard for actually how it performs. Not casting stones or being critical of anyones build, but the N600 is a good example here. Don't get me wrong...it was/is a very cool car. The finish quality was outstanding and it was definitely an usual car. It was one of my favorites that year. But it didn't work. I was sure it was going to get the most spectacular failure award that year as I watched it repeatedly end up on two wheels during the autox. It was a neat car that showed beautifully, but in the state it was in at the challenge that year, it didn't work. Maybe it could have worked with some more time...who knows. All I know is that watching the car autox, I was concerned it was going to be on it's side.

4- Take away the misc point additions rule that came up this year. Are we racing or are we turning this into a freak show? I fear this, like the tire rule, will back fire on the event. I can tell you I'm much less apt to put the 100's of hours into building a car out of junk, fabricating parts, making sure that they work/perform and spraying rustoleum all over the place if I think that some oddball unfinished car is going to get free points because it's odd. Judge a car on it's merits, not on it's manufacturer or country of origin.

5- Stop changing the rules. Pick a rule set, preferably a very simple one for your simple readers such as myself and stick with it. Changing the rules, making new exceptions, etc. makes it difficult to plan ahead.

Again, I am going to stay out of the bickering that I fear this thread is going to decay into but I did want to give my point of view on this. The Challenge was a very unique event that was attractive to a large group of readers and racers. Get it back to it's roots and I bet you'll see more competitors, which is how you appease the sponsors and keep the event going.

Pat

danvan wrote: 3 make it truly a budget race and all would have more fun

why?

And who?

Here's a clue- most of the writing about Lemons is about the theme the car and the team. On the other hand, most of the writing about the Challenge is about the CAR.

I think people are very enthusiastic about people crafting their own car, and no, the readers are not dumb- and can interpret the numbers however they see fit. The key is that there's a whole article dedicated to the challenge, and it's well worth it. On top of that, there are whole articles dedicated to interesting cars- even if they don't win.

this isnt' a game about who wins, it's a game about interesting projects done as cheap as they can.

(if it were truly a budget race, it would probably be a 70/30 split between civics and miatas. who cares?)

Thanks, Pat. Those are good points, all worthy of consideration.

I'm definitely straying into bickering territory, so I'm going to try to avoid this thread.

BTW, ScAries is awesome!

danvan wrote: I watch this all from afar and have a few points i live in B.C Canada and have been involved in racing pretty much all my life,as a kid watching my dad oavl track race,as a youg adult crewing on a radical offset super modified to more recently placing well in the quad c west division super stock autocross class, and I hold a scca senior race licience and run a 70 Datsun 510 road race car in local scca and cacc events. I have built a lot of race cars in my life and have never had one cost $20XX the way your budget works it is so easy to cheat 1 there are no $500.00 corvettes or porcshes for that matter 2 I live in a forigen country and even up here we fix e bay auctions {for the right price} 3 make it truly a budget race and all would have more fun 4 I love reading about the challange and think it is a great event but please dont think your readers are stupid we know how much it costs to build cars because we do build cars 5 My super stock auto cross car is a 91 corvette with a 600 hp 590 ft lb torque 406 small block wild wood brakes 315-30-18 a 6 hoosiers on all 4 corners race weight with me in it 2900 lbs, runs the 1/4 in 11.40 at 120. if any one would like to see i can do a 2013 budget for this car in a couple of hours i have a bunch of friends that will help me out with that {see my avatar see the car} 6 thats all i have sorry for bitching if you made it real it would be more fun PS It is more fun to drive a slow car fast that it is to drive a fast car slow

Good news–it is real! Come to the challenge and you'll see.

Tom Suddard wrote:

danvan wrote: I watch this all from afar and have a few points i live in B.C Canada and have been involved in racing pretty much all my life,as a kid watching my dad oavl track race,as a youg adult crewing on a radical offset super modified to more recently placing well in the quad c west division super stock autocross class, and I hold a scca senior race licience and run a 70 Datsun 510 road race car in local scca and cacc events. I have built a lot of race cars in my life and have never had one cost $20XX the way your budget works it is so easy to cheat 1 there are no $500.00 corvettes or porcshes for that matter 2 I live in a forigen country and even up here we fix e bay auctions {for the right price} 3 make it truly a budget race and all would have more fun 4 I love reading about the challange and think it is a great event but please dont think your readers are stupid we know how much it costs to build cars because we do build cars 5 My super stock auto cross car is a 91 corvette with a 600 hp 590 ft lb torque 406 small block wild wood brakes 315-30-18 a 6 hoosiers on all 4 corners race weight with me in it 2900 lbs, runs the 1/4 in 11.40 at 120. if any one would like to see i can do a 2013 budget for this car in a couple of hours i have a bunch of friends that will help me out with that {see my avatar see the car} 6 thats all i have sorry for bitching if you made it real it would be more fun PS It is more fun to drive a slow car fast that it is to drive a fast car slow

Good news–it is real! Come to the challenge and you'll see.

I have run the event 4 times now, it is real, the cars are real and the fun is real. If you haven't been there you have no place commenting at all.

Or in GRM speak HTFU Bob Costas and bring a car.

aussiesmg wrote:

Tom Suddard wrote:

danvan wrote: sorry for bitching if you made it real it would be more fun

Good news–it is real! Come to the challenge and you'll see.

I have run the event 4 times now, it is real, the cars are real and the fun s real. If you haven't been there you have no place commenting at all. Or in GRM speak HTFU Bob Costas and bring a car.

You don't get much more real than this

If they were cheating they would have spent enough money to build a more reliable car. If you look at the welds, you see enough variation in quality to be sure that these were done by different students

JoeyM wrote:

aussiesmg wrote:

Tom Suddard wrote:

danvan wrote: sorry for bitching if you made it real it would be more fun

Good news–it is real! Come to the challenge and you'll see.

I have run the event 4 times now, it is real, the cars are real and the fun s real. If you haven't been there you have no place commenting at all. Or in GRM speak HTFU Bob Costas and bring a car.

You don't get much more real than this If they were cheating they would have spent enough money to build a more reliable car. If you look at the welds, you see enough variation in quality to be sure that these were done by different students

We hear the same crap about Lemons. People love to sit at home and complain. Precious few will come and waste weekends and nights in the garage to prep a rusty discarded pile (or piles) of junk for a few minutes of automotive bliss once a year.

Let 'em complain. We're too busy racing.

one more example for danvan:

Nobody sells hoods that are coremat with a metal leading edge.

in reply to danvan:

bring the vette that's in your avatar, with your fictional $2k budget for it. nobody will protest, and you still won't win the overall. the hongs will butt-berkeley you in the autocross in a better-looking car, and SDAC and/or westside will eat your lunch at the drags.

I did the '06 Challenge with a Spitfire I bought for $150, a 12A rotary which was part of a package deal of 2 cars for $600, a pile of crusty Miata suspension parts I got for (IIRC) $200, a U-weld-it header kit and various bits/pieces I scrounged up. I spent $1860.00 and 2 1/2 years building it. So yeah I can say the Challenge is for real.

Mine was the red stripe car. It now belongs to Toyman on this board.

Just to be clear I by no means think that a SCCA D/Emod car would win or even place particularly well at the challenge. What I would like to see is that any vehicle that was built for <$2014 be scored heads up against all the rest, that the Overall results list in order the finish of all of the <$2014 cars that showed up.
Most of the cars that people are posting as examples of good fabrication that are within the challenge rules are awesome. Eventually I will have the time to build a car dedicated to the challenge and I will play by whatever rules are in place and push them as far as I can. What I do have time for now is to build a Grassroots budget car that I can use for local events and for me that means SCCA Autox and trackdays. That's why I'd like to see an allowance for cars that are Homebuilt in nature.

It's sad to see people get so upset over peoples suggestions/opinions for challenge rules changes. I agree that people who have been and actively participate in the challenge should have a Large say in the rules the challenge uses. That said the Active Challenge Participants are only 1 of the Customers the challenge serves. The Magazine readers are another Customer and a ruleset should be writen to bring in what they like to see in the Magazine. Furthermore the number of Active DIY car builders whom Have not attended a challenge for whatever reason are a group who's thoughts should be considered. If rule changes could be enacted to bring out more cars and more builds then those are important opinions to be heard.

As to weather or not the GRM readership would enjoy seing coverage of Amod type cars I guess it would depend on who you ask. I personally would love to see some articles about Amod cars and what it takes to build and develop one. It seems on the surface that it doesn't get more Grassroots than building a car in your garage that is the Absolute fastest way around a autox course.

I guess the question at hand is what set of rules would bring in the MOST cars and result in the best competition.
Right now there seems to be 3 general trends I'm seeing in the comments 1 group seems to not want any additonal changes and is happy with the rules as is they just want rule stability so they know what to build 1 group seems to want the rules to return to a previous iteration that had less allowances than the current rules.
1 group seems to be suggesting opening the rules further to allow more Homebuilt/tube frame type cars.

From the people who have participated I've not heard anyone say do not bring a car that is prepared in excess of the rules as it's about the event not the competition, chances are very high you won't win anyway.

So what if we tried making everyone happy? Allow Anything that shows up that can show a recoup included safety item excluded budget of <$2014 to participate in the overall score. The results would just list the actual finish order in all 3 events and the overall top to bottom order.

Require that upon registration the Vehicle be registered in 1 of the 3 following ways:

Unlimited - No vehicle Rules, cars must simply pass a Tech inspection similar to that that SCCA A/D/E mod cars.

Production - No Kit cars, no Homebuilts, Production based chassis must have windshield, lights, And dash Budget includes Safety exceptions

Traditional - Production class cars whos budget includes ALL items on the car. Total expense less recoup must be no more than $2014 inclusive of safety items, tires.

Award the Top 3 overall, Top 3 of each class and indicate in the Magazine results which class each car ran in. This would move the event a bit more like a multi class endurance race but would be interesting to see what cars shake out where.

aussiesmg wrote: I have run the event 4 times now, it is real, the cars are real and the fun is real. If you haven't been there you have no place commenting at all. Or in GRM speak HTFU Bob Costas and bring a car.

Yes, because that attitude always wins friends, ups attendance, and sells more magazines.

most of the cars you have shown have wheels and tires worth over half the budget

old beat up miatas sell for 3 to 5 grand up here

never said my car was faster than anyone elses was just trying to show i have been around racing

love to build a car and run this race but i am prety good fabricator on race cars but not on budgets if i did bring the vett down i would have to fabricat it down by about 20.000 [dont know where you ger your tire prices but up here i just recieved my tires for the vett and they prety much blow your budget on there own $1550.00 from tire rack

anyone know who built the mid engine pickup? i'd love to talk to that guy.

Every challenge car I have built has ended up being a DD. I build just for the challenge but I also enjoy the car. I don't pearsonally have the funds to attend many other events. This low buck build fits right in my pocket. I enjoy the radical builds and get many ideas. Hence the Toyota Buick combo. I was able to get my brother involved and that is what we came up with.

My current build has made a slight turn by " I didn't know you we're into those cars. My buddy has one under a tarp and will sell it cheap". I am picking it up Friday.

danvan wrote: most of the cars you have shown have wheels and tires worth over half the budget old beat up miatas sell for 3 to 5 grand up here never said my car was faster than anyone elses was just trying to show i have been around racing love to build a car and run this race but i am prety good fabricator on race cars but not on budgets if i did bring the vett down i would have to fabricat it down by about 20.000 [dont know where you ger your tire prices but up here i just recieved my tires for the vett and they prety much blow your budget on there own $1550.00 from tire rack

Worth =! what someone necessarily paid for them.

I can get race takeoff RA1s for my car for about $50 a pair. I'd have to move down to 15" wheels, but hey, Diamond Racing makes cheap steelies.

It's all about shopping for a deal.

Nobody is showing up on CCWs, and prices of cars and parts are not static across North America.

I got a 93 Miata roller for FREE a couple months ago. Whether or not beat up miatas sell for $3-5k is completely irrelevant.

Tires are easy. Run Kumhos and they don't touch the budget. Or run used tires for pennies on the dollar. (Like me!)

The moral of the story is: Don't call BS on the builds unless you've been there. The photos quite often make the cars look far better than they really are. Yes, there's some absolutely incredible cars in every regard. There's also some reasonably gross hoopties that would leave NO DOUBT in your mind that they were put together for $2000 or less. In fact, some of them might leave you wondering what the berkeley they spent their $2000 on.

My car falls into the "hoopty" category.

Oh, and it traps higher in the quarter mile than your Vette. (When my turbo isn't falling off, that is.)

danvan wrote: most of the cars you have shown have wheels and tires worth over half the budget old beat up miatas sell for 3 to 5 grand up here never said my car was faster than anyone elses was just trying to show i have been around racing love to build a car and run this race but i am prety good fabricator on race cars but not on budgets if i did bring the vett down i would have to fabricat it down by about 20.000 [dont know where you ger your tire prices but up here i just recieved my tires for the vett and they prety much blow your budget on there own $1550.00 from tire rack

Challenge cars are HUGELY expensive for POS crap in MN too. My solution? My car is coming from Indy, where everything Japanese is a dollar.