S2000 vs. Miata

There was another company that made bolt on flares for the miata that looked SICK.

Tuckin99 I believe.

Appleseed wrote: Tuckin99 I believe.

Yes. That's it.

And holy crap.... Rev9 has so much stuff for these things. I'm normally not one for tons of aftermarket useless "goodies" but that site is like a candy store to me. Good thing i don't have a Miata, it'd become a huge money pit in no time.

I agree. Is like a Miata crackhouse.

The right answer is drive them both and decide what you think. That said...

If you're looking for a project and something to improve your skills in, I think the Miata is the best way to go. Buy one at good value and slowly upgrade it to your needs. When I see people with the money for "fast" cars at HPDE, even in "advanced" groups, I have to say that the Miata has made me a better driver. Textbook handling and low power conspired to force me to drive right in order to be fast.

So, you get a Miata for $3k-$4k. You spend $1k on springs/shocks/bushings, $500 on a rollbar, and $800 on wheels/tires (less if you hunt a bit). You have a totally track-ready car for $6k. You use it for 2-4 years making yourself a good driver. At that point, you can decide what you'd like to move up into. If you want the same car, but faster, drop a couple grand on a turbo. Or, pull your parts and build a Locost. Or, sell it, get most of your money back, and buy the horsepower beast or spec racer you're now itching for.

Salanis wrote: The right answer is drive them both and decide what you think. That said... If you're looking for a project and something to improve your skills in, I think the Miata is the best way to go. Buy one at good value and slowly upgrade it to your needs. When I see people with the money for "fast" cars at HPDE, even in "advanced" groups, I have to say that the Miata has made me a better driver. Textbook handling and low power conspired to force me to drive right in order to be fast. So, you get a Miata for $3k-$4k. You spend $1k on springs/shocks/bushings, $500 on a rollbar, and $800 on wheels/tires (less if you hunt a bit). You have a totally track-ready car for $6k. You use it for 2-4 years making yourself a good driver. At that point, you can decide what you'd like to move up into. If you want the same car, but faster, drop a couple grand on a turbo. Or, pull your parts and build a Locost. Or, sell it, get most of your money back, and buy the horsepower beast or spec racer you're now itching for.

Thanks for sorting out my smattering of random thoughts into one coherent, logical, and well spoken post for me, I was struggling.... ;)

I don't have anything more to add, except:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7iUKaPlBl8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETmnennvBhM <--NSFW, but funny!

Overall speed isn't everything, sometimes driving a slow car, quickly is more fun than driving a quick car, slowly!

Quick miata question... (probably applies to S2K as well)

For HPDE, specifically scca PDX, NASA, and summit point FATT.

I know you pretty much would have to get an approved rollbar (harddog hard core or similar), but if you do that would you also need harnesses, and if you do that would you also have to get a seat with a removable headrest/harness holes in order to run it? What about arm restraints?

Could be that I have been hanging around hillclimbs too much... I have seen anecdotal evidence that just that bar will do. (rode along in an instructor in an S2k at summit and I had stock restraints in the pass seat)

My track Miata has stock seats and belts with a hard dog bar. I have ridden in an instructor's S2000 with stock belts. Installing a cg-lock on the belt helped to keep my hips planted during cornering.

I actually think you can get away with the stock roll hoops on an S2000 for HPDE, but I would definitely upgrade to a larger rollbar.

For HPDE and NASA events, the stock hoops are acceptable for the S2000 and the Boxster since their windshield frames are rated to hold the weight of the car in a rollover. SCCA is a bunch of haters

I have owned probably 10 miata's and another 5 from family. We are a miata family. I've done spec miata, hpde, turbo miata's...everything from stock to highly modified miata's. I just recently made the switch to an S2000 and I love the car. Don't get me wrong a street/track miata with everthing from 949racing.com that I could buy would be really sweet. I just can't justify spending that kind of money when a bone stock S2000 will break the spec miata track record at almost any track. Throw a couple thousand at it and you've got something really fast. From working on it the last couple of weeks getting it ready for a TWS hpde it really is as if Honda brought a miata into there shop and said, How can we make this better. As far as the power is concerned it really is like a better NB miata around town, then if you want more power you just let it rev up into vtech. Interesting read here from the turbo miata guys.

http://www.miataturbo.net/showthread.php?t=52843

turboswede wrote: Because the Miata will be cheaper to maintain and if you do ball it up, they made millions of them. Upgrades are cheap and not always necessary depending on skill level and desired participation levels. I think of them as the MG of our time. Moldable clay that can made to do nearly whatever you like. The S2000 is a great car, no doubt. But you're more or less stuck where you are at with it. As you said, mods don't get you much without spending big money. They have weak syncro's from the factory, that Honda has a TSB out for, but you have to ask them to do it under warranty or face a $3K rebuild/replacement. Probably less if you do it yourself. Still annoying though. The S2000, to me, is more about posing and posturing. Not that it isn't a capable car, just that the drivers are more interested in the potential, rather than actually using it. I think of them like an E30 versus an E36M3. One is typically seen on a track tearing it up with the driver enjoying the heck out of it. The other is routinely seen driving to/from the track but rarely on it, let alone being driven balls out.

I for one mercilessly cane my E36M3 track rat like a red-headed stepchild, and last year the track miles were only surpassed by street miles 'cause I still drive it to the track. E30s are cool, but the E36M3 is like a junior supercar - and there's lots of 'em that are dedicated or close to dedicated track cars.

And I have an NA Miata I'm resisting putting a roll bar in as I know where things will end up.

Someone at work pointed out that every vehicle I own sets 2, and more have roll bars than don't...

damn you all!! I read through this thread and I am once again looking at used na miatas and 03 s2000s for sale.

Appleseed wrote: I can only think of one bumper (Racing Beat type II) that looks good on a NA.

Miatas are nice cars for what they are, but IMO the only real advantage they have over an s2000 is the cost.

You forget the tunability - I don't think you can get the same sort of performance improvement out of an S2000 for similar money to a Miata.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw_Mw2OSCmA

That is a stock, unopened motor.

BoxheadTim wrote: You forget the tunability - I don't think you can get the same sort of performance improvement out of an S2000 for similar money to a Miata.

That's why I said cost ;)

turboswede wrote: I think of them like an E30 versus an E36M3. One is typically seen on a track tearing it up with the driver enjoying the heck out of it. The other is routinely seen driving to/from the track but rarely on it, let alone being driven balls out.

I agree with most of your sentiments, but on this point, which is which? I haven't seen an E30 M3 live on track, like, ever. E36 M3's? They're disposable enough that people take them, and all the time. I'm finding that E30 325's and E36 M3's are closing in price with comparable miles and condition. Much closer than you might think. I've pretty much given up on finding an E30 in decent shape for track and commute.

A guy with a properly prepared E30 M3 (cage etc) turned up at one of the tracks I went to in the UK (because it was closest to where I lived) on a pretty regular basis. They're out there...

This past track season (2010), I transitioned from a 2008 Viper with about 650 hp to a relatively stock 1994 Miata with about 128 hp. After doing a full season of autocross and HPDE events, this was the best decision for improving my driving skills.

I am learning far more trying to extract as much performance from a relatively underpowered car than I was with a vastly overpowered car. I have asked the owner of my local speed shop who built my Miata whether I should be looking to step up to something like an S2000 or a C5 Z06 Corvette. He said basically that whenever he has gone up to higher powered cars he always comes back to the Miata in terms of its handling and driving capabilities. (This guy has been to the SCCA Runoffs the last few years and is often recruited to drive fairly high hp cars for teams.)

The icing on the cake is the cost to benefit ratio of the Miata. I spent about $4500 on the car which included a Hard Dog rollbar (which is pretty much mandatory for HPDE in our region), lightweight rims with high performance Hankook tires, a hardtop in great condition and front and rear Flying Miata swaybars. I also upgraded the car with a Tein Mono Flex adjustable coilover system, Recaro race seats, and Schroth 6-point harnesses. All told, however, the total investment in the car is still only about $10,000. You could go much cheaper than this with a Miata in lesser condition and avoid the higher price suspension, Recaros etc.

The bottom line is that I can wad this car up into a ball and walk away with few regrets, find another Miata, pull what I can from the old car and be back on track quickly. I believe that this would be far more difficult with a totalled S2000. This peace of mind alone is worth it for the fact that I can push harder and learn more without fearing the financial consequences.

Finally, there is just something cool about learning to take an underpowered car that handles great and catching machinery that costs 5-10 x as much as the Miata. The hotshoe I mentioned above just posted a video where, in his relatively stock Miata with 195 profile street tires, caught a Corvette Z06. I don't know about you, but I want to learn how to do that.

Have fun!

/Rich

Wow this thread came back from the dead, any updates since august ben?

Teh E36 M3 wrote:

turboswede wrote: I think of them like an E30 versus an E36M3. One is typically seen on a track tearing it up with the driver enjoying the heck out of it. The other is routinely seen driving to/from the track but rarely on it, let alone being driven balls out.

I agree with most of your sentiments, but on this point, which is which? I haven't seen an E30 M3 live on track, like, ever. E36 M3's? They're disposable enough that people take them, and all the time. I'm finding that E30 325's and E36 M3's are closing in price with comparable miles and condition. Much closer than you might think. I've pretty much given up on finding an E30 in decent shape for track and commute.

every bmwcca trackday ive been to has been FULL of e30 M3s (mine included). at Mont-Tremblant a few years ago i counted somewhere around 12 e30 M3s, again with bmwcca, not including the J-Stock club race cars which are pretty much all e30 M3s. (i counted cars wearing Kosei K1 wheels too and that was over 20)

there's even been up to 4 e30 M3s at our local 100 car autocross events. maybe its a regional thing?

i have been seeing a TON of e36 m3s now though, but considering how many more there are and their depreciation curve that helps their case.

WilberM3 wrote: i have been seeing a TON of e36 m3s now though, but considering how many more there are and their depreciation curve that helps their case.

When I first started attending events with the BMW CCA in 2000 there were always numerous E30 M3's and E36 M3's on track. These days the trend is E46 M3's and E36 M3's. My guess is that this shift has a lot to do with cost of entry vs performance, and the fact that E30 M3's have become collector cars to be preserved.

I've had both. After having both at the same time I sold the Miata and kept the S2000.

S2000s can be had for a song now so that makes the comparison even harder. I have a completely dismantled S2000 in my garage at the moment that I paid $1,500 for. I'm taking the good parts and putting them in a tube frame to make it a play toy.

When the cars get to the price you can afford to just play with them I don't think it becomes an either/or situation but a "which one appears on your radar first" situation.

For street driving it's the S2000 hands down. For autocross I prefer the Miata - just barely. For HPDE it's the S2000 all the way.