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AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/18/23 1:35 p.m.

OK, seat belt question for autocrossers:

i grabbed a minivan 2nd row seat belt assembly because i needed longer belt for Corvair.  new seat belt has the "ratchets back when pulled to full extension, and will not extend again until fully retracted" feature.  unfortunately, as installed in the Corvair, it does not reach the "fully retracted" position and can't be extended again. this can be overcome by removing a piece of the ratcheting mechanism, easy peasy.  however, removing this piece disables the entire ratcheting function, vs the more desirable outcome of changing where the "fully retracted" position occurs.

this feature is completely separate from the inertia reel function, and is also completely separate from the "won't extend unless perfectly level" feature.

i think this ratcheting feature is not necessary.  the old way of quickly pulling belt to engage inertia latch, then sliding seat forward to hold belt against inertia latch, will still work.

what say GRM autocrossers with inertia reel belt experience?  is this good enough for holding driver in place while autocrossing?

clutchsmoke
clutchsmoke UltraDork
10/18/23 3:30 p.m.

Are they still around? But I think G-lock might be another device to use.

Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter)
Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/18/23 4:51 p.m.

I'd rather just put a fully "manual" belt in the car if its just a racer. Some thing from an older bench seat.

Interia reels seemed fine for me but I found myself slouching and slipping under the belt at the end of a run.

Snap the belt to get it locked then move the seat forward a notch to get better secured.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
10/18/23 5:15 p.m.

Not trying to open a can of worms, but I don't think an OE 3-point repurposed in a different vehicle is supposed to pass tech...

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/18/23 5:16 p.m.

I also think the ratcheting feature isn't necessary, my AE92 doesn't have it and now that I think of it, I don't think the Toyobaru does either.

I use a seatbelt locking clip at the latch when on track, that fully locks the lap portion of the belt so that can't loosen at all and holds you in the seat a lot better. It's basically a simpler and less convenient (but also cheaper) version of the G-lock/CG-lock.

dps214
dps214 SuperDork
10/18/23 7:26 p.m.
SV reX said:

Not trying to open a can of worms, but I don't think an OE 3-point repurposed in a different vehicle is supposed to pass tech...

Officially only a lap belt is required, and he only other requirement is that the belts "must be properly installed with attaching hardware, in good condition, secure, tight" which is open to interpretation but I'd say this is fine as long as it's installed reasonably.

Is getting a better seat an option? I've never had an issue staying in place in anything with half decent seats. Can't remember the last time I had to do any seat belt berkeleyery like that.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/18/23 11:20 p.m.
SV reX said:

Not trying to open a can of worms (yet proceeding to potentially open said can of worms by speculating instead of reviewing the rules) but I don't think an OE 3-point repurposed in a different vehicle is supposed to pass tech...

https://2000challenge.com/rules/ states:

OEM three-point seat belts may be retained. If the OEM belt is not three-point, or if the driver’s seating position has been modified significantly, then a racing harness is required.

Late model Corvairs were available with three-point belts, so your concern is unfounded.

now let's get back to the question at hand, which is not "gee, I wonder if AC can read a berkeleying rule book?"

what say GRM autocrossers with inertia reel belt experience?  is this good enough for holding driver in place while autocrossing?

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/18/23 11:25 p.m.
dps214 said:
Officially only a lap belt is required

Maybe in the past, but the challenge rules clearly state "If the OEM belt is not three-point, or if the driver’s seating position has been modified significantly, then a racing harness is required."

https://2000challenge.com/rules/

dps214
dps214 SuperDork
10/18/23 11:42 p.m.

I was referring to scca rules, which are even less restrictive than challenge rules.

The second part of my post stands. With a half decent seat a normal three point belt is fine.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
10/19/23 1:34 a.m.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

I'm not picking a fight, I'm honestly trying to understand. 
 

How does a seatbelt from a minivan count as OE for a Corvair?

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/19/23 2:10 a.m.
SV reX said:

Not trying to open a can of worms, but I don't think an OE 3-point repurposed in a different vehicle is supposed to pass tech...

When I autocrossed and rallycrossed my Golf, I got by with a NAPA universal manual lap belt.

It was one of those weird cars that had a 2 point belt attached to the door, no lap belt, and the stock belt was next to useless for holding a driver in the seat, so effectively I only had a lap belt.

 

I actually preferred it that way, and often ran my harness-equipped car without the shoulder straps latched in.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/19/23 2:13 a.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
dps214 said:
Officially only a lap belt is required

Maybe in the past, but the challenge rules clearly state "If the OEM belt is not three-point, or if the driver’s seating position has been modified significantly, then a racing harness is required."

https://2000challenge.com/rules/

Easy-peasy, you need a harness for the Challenge since that isn't the OEM belt.

 

(A strict interpretation of the rules suggests that you can't even put a like-for-like replacement belt in a car that came with a 3 point, because that isn't the unit installed at the factory.  Writing rules to be unambiguous without unintended consequences is FUN)

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/19/23 12:17 p.m.

To dps214 i say I should have specified in the thread title that I'm asking in the context of the $2000 Challenge, so Challenge rules apply.

To SVreX and Pete, i say let's look at what's written, not what you think is implied or intended.

https://2000challenge.com/rules/ states:

OEM three-point seat belts may be retained.

"may", not "shall" or "must".  So it is established that OEM three-point seat belts may be replaced.  No mention of what they may be replaced with.  We'll get to that later.

The next statement is a two-possibility OR, so let's look at each of the possibilities:

If the OEM belt is not three-point

we have already established that late model Corvairs were available with three-point seat belts, so we can disregard that;

or if the driver’s seating position has been modified significantly

driver's seating position has NOT been modified significantly, so we can disregard that.  those are the only two  conditions which require racing harness, so we have now fully established that i DO NOT require a racing harness, and i MAY either retain or replace my OEM three-point seat belts.  Do you agree?

if you can't answer YES to that question, please leave the chat, because you're who Strother Martin was talking about when he said "Some men you just cain't reach."

**************

So, now we are all on the same page.  i MAY replace my OEM three-point seat belts.  So let's consider what would be an appropriate replacement.  Perhaps a seat belt from a later vehicle, which satisfies the latest Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) in effect at the time of production? Yes, that's what I SHALL do.

FMVSS 209 (effective 01-Mar-1967) is the current standard for seat belt assemblies (straps, webbing, buckles, fasteners).

FMVSS 210 (effective 01-Jan-1968) is the current standard for seat belt anchorage (components other than straps or webbing, involved in transferring seat belt loads to vehicle structure).

and because I think it's interesting info, Here's a handy link to a summary of all FMVSS.  Scroll down to see summary descriptions and effective dates for all FMVSS, broken down by type. The 100-series deal with crash avoidance. The 200-series, crashworthiness.  And the 300-series are post-crash standards.

***************

and with that, i will spend no more time addressing this topic.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/19/23 12:19 p.m.
GameboyRMH said:

I also think the ratcheting feature isn't necessary, my AE92 doesn't have it and now that I think of it, I don't think the Toyobaru does either.

the ratcheting feature may be only on 2nd and 3rd row seat belts, as it is intended to provide a "fixed length" belt for securing child seats.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
10/19/23 12:38 p.m.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

This is beneath you. Me thinks he doth protest way too much.

Your car is a 1965. Chevrolet didn't introduce 3 point harnesses in Corvairs until halfway through 1966. And your thread shows you welding in the attachment point for the shoulder harness. 
 

Since you are quoting rules, let's note that they say the OEM seatbelt may be retained.  They don't say an OEM belt from another vehicle may be added, or utilized.

A retractable belt from a minivan was never an OEM part in a Corvair.  Even if it's allowable, now you are now also discussing modifying a safety device.

Don't forget that the Challenge rules also say that we have to follow the safety rules of the NHRA.   Tom said he has asked Tech to go hard on us this year.  Feel free to argue the point online, but ultimately the decision will be in the hands of the Tech inspectors and GRM.
 

Consider the possibility that some of us may actually care about you and your fantastic car, and want to see you compete without complications. I won't speak for others, but I am just trying to look out for you. 
 

Build what you want. But DBAD.

Good luck. 

kevinatfms
kevinatfms HalfDork
10/19/23 12:55 p.m.

Anyone know why CG Lock isnt around anymore? I love the one i have for autocross and track days. Hope it never breaks as i dont think there is anything else comparable.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
10/19/23 1:04 p.m.

In reply to kevinatfms :

Here's a merchant that claims to sell it (but they are out of stock)

CG Lock

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/19/23 1:13 p.m.
kevinatfms said:

Anyone know why CG Lock isnt around anymore? I love the one i have for autocross and track days. Hope it never breaks as i dont think there is anything else comparable.

They damage the webbing after extended use.  BTDT.

 

Not saying that is the why, but it is a reason to not use one.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/19/23 2:58 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
kevinatfms said:

Anyone know why CG Lock isnt around anymore? I love the one i have for autocross and track days. Hope it never breaks as i dont think there is anything else comparable.

They damage the webbing after extended use.  BTDT.

 

Not saying that is the why, but it is a reason to not use one.

Same as a seatbelt locking clip, which is why I only use them on the track. I don't think they will do in your belts too quickly if used sparingly.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/19/23 3:12 p.m.
TVR Scott
TVR Scott GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
10/19/23 4:07 p.m.

What about using a quick-connect clip on the floor side?  Like this from Pegasus:

 

Then you could easily disconnect that end and allow the belt to fully retract and reset the ratchet mechanism.  A solution?

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/19/23 7:25 p.m.
TVR Scott said:

What about using a quick-connect clip on the floor side?  Like this from Pegasus:

 

Then you could easily disconnect that end and allow the belt to fully retract and reset the ratchet mechanism.  A solution?

Interesting, and would definitely provide an option for achieving full retraction, but installing it would require modifying a safety system and OMG TEH ZOMBEE POCKERLIPS.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/20/23 8:32 a.m.

I guess I just don't understand putting all this work in to shortcut a simple safety item

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/20/23 9:42 a.m.

Can you mount the retractor higher up on the B-pillar? It doesn't have to be in the same spot as the lower lap belt anchor. This might give you enough slack so it doesn't engage the locking mechanism. Pictures would go a long way here. You may be smarter than me but personally I wouldn't be opening up and tinkering with seat belt mechanisms. 

Regarding safety rules, if you are worried about passing tech, you could always have both sets of belts installed. 3-point for the street, and harness bar + 5 point harness for competition. That's what I did with Datsaniti, and it was very convenient.

Edit: alternatively, you can run a universal 3-point non-retracting belt. I ordered something like this for the Lotus. It's free in the Challenge budget, and very cheap in the normal budget. https://www.wescoperformance.com/3pt-non-retractable-seat-belts-bckt-help.html

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/20/23 9:50 a.m.
bobzilla said:

I guess I just don't understand putting all this work in to shortcut a simple safety item

You're not alone. I don't understand the conclusion you've stated. May I ask for more information?

What exactly do you mean by "putting all this work in to shortcut a simple safety item"?

Break it down for me like I'm as dumb as some people here would have you believe I am.

What is "all this work"?

What safety item am I "shortcutting"?

How am I "shortcutting" it?

What I have done is analogous to re-webbing an out of date harness. I have duplicated factory attachment point for shoulder belt. There is an existing structural plate in this location on all late (1965-69) Corvair coupes, as it is the node between top of C pillar and roof. GM did not add structural material for shoulder belt attachment because it was already there.

DIY cut unibody and weld in suspension from different car? Sweet!

DIY narrow rear suspension subframe? Juicy!

DIY fabricate fuel tank and lines, brake lines, motor mounts? Baller!

Splice halfshafts? Sick!

DIY NHRA-compliant firewall? Pimp!

Bolt in an FMVSS 209 seat belt? GET BEHIND ME, SATAN!

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