In reply to Toyman! :
I can absolutely believe that. I seem to recall that in the service manual for my Chevy P30 motorhome chassis, they show the towing capacity for each motor and axle combination with a footnote that the capacity can be increased by 25% if the speed doesn't go over 25mph.
Payload is the big (legal) kicker when towing with a midsize near capacity. I have zero hesitation towing max capacity when you consider modern power, suspension, and brakes compared to 'proper' trucks from 20 years ago with anemic engines, drum brakes, and garbage shocks yet with higher ratings. Payload, though, can get really thin once you factor in everything. My '23 Tacoma payload is only like 950lbs which is right at 15% of the towing capacity. My limiting tow case is actually when I have a nearly empty trailer + full family and karting gear. The karts themselves, stands, and gear add up to maybe 1,000lbs on a 2,000lb trailer. 15% tongue weight puts me at 450lbs on the tongue. My family weighs just shy of 400lbs. Take off another 75lbs for the tonneau and hitch, and I only have 25lbs left for gear, clothes, and buffer. If you wanted to max out towing capacity AND hit 15% tongue weight, you can't actually have a driver. Go with 10% and a WDH, you still can't have a large driver. But you wouldn't anyways because of Tacoma things, haha.
I am pretty sure the Tacoma has one of the worst payload/towing capacity ratios on the market though, especially for the heavier trims (4 door, 4wd) since payload is derived grom the GVWR. The Cayenne is MUCH better in this regard at 1,675/7700 (according to google for the base model). That leaves you with 500lb extra payload when towing at capacity at 15% tongue weight.
I'd swap my 6MT Tacoma for a 6MT Cayenne in a heartbeat if I found the right one and didn't need the truck bed until my new trailer comes in.
Toyman! said:In reply to loosecannon :
I think a lot of that is because of their rather strict towing laws. Trailers are limited to something like 50 mph. The lower the speed, the more a vehicle can safely tow.
I pulled something like 7000 pounds with my H3T a couple of weeks ago from the mountains of NC to the coast in SC. The truck is rated to tow 5000 pounds. By keeping my speeds down around 65, it towed safely and fairly easily. If I had tried to run 75-80, I'd have probably spread it all over the interstate.
I've also pulled 10k pounds about 15 miles behind an E150. My max speed was 35 mph and I did the tow at 4 am to avoid traffic.
+1 on strict laws on towing capacity AND depending on where you're at over there across the pond (like the UK) the geography **can be a lot more forgiving.
Towing through Colorado or south the through the mountains in TN can test the best rigs in the deep of summer depending on how close you are to the limit.
That said, the VW and BMW offerings are great at towing. Bronson of brofab tows a large enclosed trailer w/ his v8 miata and gear with a VW Touerag.
CrustyRedXpress said:Toyman! said:In reply to loosecannon :
I think a lot of that is because of their rather strict towing laws. Trailers are limited to something like 50 mph. The lower the speed, the more a vehicle can safely tow.
The ratings of the cars themselves seem to reflects this. My prius can tow 1500 lbs or something in Europe, but nothing here in the states...I'm sure this in turn encourages people to do so.
They also rate towing in a completely different way. Euro tows ratings are not comparable. A US tow rating on a prius wouldn't be enough for more than a very small utility trailer.
The fact you're not just towing 5k, but that it's also an enclosed trailer makes it hard to recommend a midsized vehicle/SUV unless the distance is always relatively short. So, how far are your tows? Many times per year?
If the distance is far or the frequency is high, sticking with a relatively large vehicle makes sense to me. Something with enough power to not be screaming down the highway due to aero load and enough wheelbase to stay stable in crosswinds.
Ridgeline owner here. I tow up to 4500lbs with an open trailer. It has a nice long wheelbase (125") but lacks the grunt to keep from needing to downshift often. I don't think I'd want to tow a 5k enclosed very often with it if that involved much highway time.
Of the newer SUVs, maybe a CX-70/90 would tick all the boxes. Longer wheelbase than most others in the category, good torque, Mazda dynamics.
In reply to Tom1200 :
Have you driven the new extended cab pickups? The aren't ponderous at all.
I feel like the towing capacity is an easy metric to meet but because its an enclosed trailer, I think you'd have a hard time finding a smaller midsize SUV being fully up to the task.
In reply to yupididit :
I drove a 2017 F150 EB for a couple of weeks while my Touareg was in the shop. They aren't necessarily ponderous. They have plenty of power and reasonably decent handling. They even have decent fuel economy. What they are is huge to park and maneuver through traffic. They are also very jittery over uneven road surfaces. Probably caused by a chassis that is as floppy as a wet noodle. I was very happy to get the Touareg back.
In reply to Toyman! :
2017 is modern but not new, to me. The 2021+ F150 (14th gen) drives way better than a 2017, I do agree with your experience for that particular F150 MY.
I was just wondering if the OP has driven any of the NEW pickups. You can still get them without 4 doors etc.
In reply to yupididit :
Mu borther has a 22 EB Tremor. The Tremor rides better due to the shocks but it's just as huge to park and maneuver and just as floppy as the 2017.
In reply to Toyman! :
I guess we have different opinion on what ponderous feels like. Hopefully the OP finds out for himself.
In reply to yupididit :
I rather specifically they aren't necessarily ponderous. The newer ones handle fairly well for a truck. They are very quick with the top tier engines and even the base engines aren't slouches. Their fuel economy is almost unbelievable. Not only that, they are comfortable.
They are just huge when you have to deal with traffic or parking inside the city limits.
If you go from a Touareg to an F150, you will realize just how floppy the F series chassis is. The chassis in my H3T is significantly stiffer because of all the extra cross-bracing it has. So was the chassis in my 07 Silverado. It was an Aldante noodle instead of a wet noodle. Still floppy, just not as bad. That makes for a chassis that is easy to unsettle over potholes and grade crossings.
Some people like full-size trucks and they have their place. There is a reason that most of the cars sold in the US are trucks. I was forced to drive full-size trucks and vans for close to 30 years. They were the right tools for the job. Now, for me, they aren't and they aren't something I want to drive daily. I'll stick with mid-size trucks and SUVs.
All that said, I still own 5 of them because that's what my employees drive as work vehicles as they are the right tool for the job.
The good news is everyone can still drive what they want for at least a little while longer.
My 3.5k rated minivan had the same engine, gearing, and brakes, while being a little heavier, longer wheelbase, and higher payload capable than the 3-row CUV built on the same platform. The FWD CUV variant had the same 3.5k rating, and the AWD CUV variant got bumped up to a 5k rating. I believe this is pretty common across manufacturers. We towed a 3.5k travel trailer with it (and an Andersen WDH) for a few years, and while stability was fine, it was drivetrain limited. Based on my experience, I would definitely recommend against pushing the tow rating with anything (including trucklets based on the same) in this 'barely 5k' rated vehicle class, especially in more hilly/mountainous areas.
I had long loathed the idea of full-size trucks. However, while I like the idea of mid-size trucks, we immediately found during our search for a more capable tow vehicle that the reality of them wouldn't work for us. While certainly not great, since I don't actually spend a lot of time in aggressively tight surroundings, the girth actually hasn't been as bad as I had feared. Even the fuel economy has been shockingly good, especially since it somehow manages to relax my driving style (and me) in a way I could never achieve in more 'fun' cars. In a very different way that we typically talk about around here, it very much doesn't suck to drive for me. Honestly, and as surprising to me as anybody, my near-ideally (unicorn) optioned 2.7EB 10-spd F150 is one of my favorite vehicles I've ever owned.
For regularly needing a 5k tow rating, I'd say at least a 6k+ (or better 7k+) rated vehicle with RWD (rather than FWD) based drivetrain. The pros/cons of of a truck bed vs a SUV hatch are situationally dependent. Both are compromised, it's just which set of compromises ticks the most important boxes. For us that meant a truck bed. Admittedly, if I was in a different situation that didn't need as much rear seat room (2 kids + medium dog) I might have gone with a (high payload rated) midsize truck as being more 'right-sized'.
Long story short, from what little I know of your situation, I'd probably be looking at mid-size trucks and/or similar size and capability C/SUV's... But keeping a close eye on payload.
Without actual measures, I'd conservatively protect for up to ~700lb tongue on your trailer. Depending how much more than just the car you bring with, I don't think I'd want less than a 1300 pound (drivers door sticker, not over-stated advertised) payload rating in this case.
JMcD said:The fact you're not just towing 5k, but that it's also an enclosed trailer makes it hard to recommend a midsized vehicle/SUV unless the distance is always relatively short. So, how far are your tows? Many times per year?
If the distance is far or the frequency is high, sticking with a relatively large vehicle makes sense to me. Something with enough power to not be screaming down the highway due to aero load and enough wheelbase to stay stable in crosswinds.
Ridgeline owner here. I tow up to 4500lbs with an open trailer. It has a nice long wheelbase (125") but lacks the grunt to keep from needing to downshift often. I don't think I'd want to tow a 5k enclosed very often with it if that involved much highway time.
Of the newer SUVs, maybe a CX-70/90 would tick all the boxes. Longer wheelbase than most others in the category, good torque, Mazda dynamics.
I make two 300 mile trips (one way) from Las Vegas to Buttonwillow raceway each year. That trip involves Baker's grade and the trip up and over Tahachapi. I go to Spring Mtn 3 times a year (67 miles from my house) and it involves one grade.
The van is has a 5.8 motor that belts out 210hp and 300ft/lbs of torque
With my old open trailer (1500lbs lighter) I was down to 45mph (sometimes 40) on the big grades. I am expecting the enclosed trailer to drag it down to 35mph
yupididit said:In reply to Tom1200 :
Have you driven the new extended cab pickups? The aren't ponderous at all.
I feel like the towing capacity is an easy metric to meet but because its an enclosed trailer, I think you'd have a hard time finding a smaller midsize SUV being fully up to the task.
I really haven't. I think I drove one about 2 miles. I've ridden in a bunch of them and they are really really plush...............but I'm really really cheap and the price of them seems crazy to me.
In reply to theruleslawyer :
I have a deep seated fear of owning modern German vehicles..............I've spent many year in Japanese cars.
In reply to Tom1200 :
Never actually towed with one but if you're considering new, the Cx-70/90 seem like a good droid on paper. After that the Explorer ST perhaps as a cheaper option given used ones are available.
In reply to Tom1200 :
What's your budget? We all suggested expensive stuff lol
yupididit said:In reply to Tom1200 :
What's your budget? We all suggested expensive stuff lol
Anywhere from 15K to maybe 30K. I'd likely buy used.
So no Trackhawk? 
Tom1200 said:yupididit said:In reply to Tom1200 :
What's your budget? We all suggested expensive stuff lol
Anywhere from 15K to maybe 30K. I'd likely buy used.
You could use 2k of that budget to trade up to a cheapish used aluminum trailer if needed to open up some options?
All of these people suggesting German tow vehicles must like to sleep in a cactus tree at night because of how nice cactus tree's look. My track car is unreliable enough for my garage space, dont have spare for a Euro beast. Keep it asian or american IMO.
I bought a brand new Canyon a few years ago, largely so I'd have a tow vehicle to replace the high mileage Astro I had been using. I wouldn't use the word "ponderous", but it's certainly not as easy to use as my everyday cars. It's a truck, so it understeers and the live axle hops around quite a bit on rough roads. I'd want the perfect tow vehicle to be shorter wheelbase for everyday use, and independent rear suspension, both of which reduce it's ability to tow. It's the usual tow vehicle quandary. Also, I've got all that money tied up in a vehicle I don't need often and have little use for aside from occasional towing. My current thinking is that I would have the lightest trailer I could get (if starting over) and a smaller SUV, or, I'd drive something much smaller as a DD and simply rent a Ford F250 whenever I needed to tow. It would depend how many times a year I had to tow, but the depreciation on the truck more than covers my current needs if I rented.
In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :
This kind of encapsulates my dilemma. The van is an RV so insurance and registration are only $200 a year.
In the 17 years we've owned it I have only put 10,000 miles on it. Consequently maintenance cost are really low.
Maybe $150 a year including amortizing the cost of tires.
Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:LT1 Caprice wagon.
They've been high on my list for a great tow pig for a bit (despite being the ugliest modern wagon made!) but most folks claiming to be selling them, apparently are also high!
Gets better mpg than the V10 I just stumbled on, but I can buy a lot of gas, on the price difference!
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