I am most attracted to a 14ish Passat SEL or an Owdi (yes, intentional) avant of some sort. But the good ole net is full of the scary. The HAS to be a sweet spot of years/ models in all of this somewhere.
I am most attracted to a 14ish Passat SEL or an Owdi (yes, intentional) avant of some sort. But the good ole net is full of the scary. The HAS to be a sweet spot of years/ models in all of this somewhere.
Maybe not helpful, but with mucho tdi experience I would say the sweet spot for a high MPG backup car is a Prius.
After a Prius a Corolla or a 4cylinder Camary?
I sacrificed mpg for AWD and a bit more of a substantial vehicle and went RAV4. Daughter kidnaped it when she went to college and it never came home. It has been reliable a gravity.
Prius if you diy repairs. Corolla is you have shops do repairs.
If Prius, I specifically recommend '04-'09. If possible '06-'09 which is generally the same car but '06+ got some slight improvements that are nice.
I bought a 2013 Passat TDI around 2020; my wife's driving it now. It's not bad. About 120,000 miles on the clock (it spent some time waiting for Dieselgate fixes). Paying a shop to do the timing belt is a bit expensive, but it's been fairly average in terms of maintenance needed and never left anyone stranded.
Gen 2 prius, these are the current auto version of a roach. Cannot kill it. For $ per mile a gas hybrid beats an oil burner. A rebuilt hybrid battery is probably less than a diesel timing belt and lasts just as long. Only 2 high dollar repairs on the prius are brake actuator pumps and fuel tanks. They are a little slow on hilly highways when trying to hold 70+ mph but its for the kids and on your dime.
The early to mid 2010s TDIs seem pretty reliable from what I see and a few people I've known that have had them. Certainly better than the typical VW/Audi reputation at least. Highway mileage is very good, city mileage won't be as good as a hybrid. I remember a friend with a 2010-ish Jetti TDI / 6sp managing to crack 50 mpg on the highway a couple times. I don't think I ever saw better than mid to high 40s on a long highway run in SWMBO's Gen 2 Prius.
A Prius wouldn't be a bad choice either, but I have a lot less love for the Gen 2 than most on here. It drives like a pretty bad penalty box, they eat front wheel bearings if you don't have perfect roads, and I found them generally irritating to work on.
Do the mid 2010s TDIs have all the annoying emissions issues the plague modern diesels? I would assume so.
rslifkin said:I remember a friend with a 2010-ish Jetti TDI / 6sp managing to crack 50 mpg on the highway a couple times. I don't think I ever saw better than mid to high 40s on a long highway run in SWMBO's Gen 2 Prius.
Keep in mind that diesel is significantly more expensive than regular gas, at least around here. So unless you're just going for bragging rights, those 50mpgs in diesel do not beat the 45mpgs of a Prius.
I paid $2.95/gallon for regular the other day, and at the same station diesel was $3.55/gallon. So gas at 45 mpg is $.066/mile, diesel at 50mpg is .071/mile. Perhaps splitting hairs in the end, but add in the maintenance costs of a VWowdi and you're gonna spend more on the diesel.
We've put over 100k miles on our Cayenne diesel, mostly trouble free. Some issues with the diesel emissions gear that were fixed under warranty, but would've been extremely expensive if not for the warranty. I had a touareg tdi for a year, mostly trouble free but I was going to need to fix a coolant leak in the valley and it had just barely started to leak oil from the back of the motor, so it was going to require some time/money in a bit.
As a VW owner, if searching for a decade-old VAG product, I'd look for a vehicle with as complete maintenance record/history as I could find.
I'd also look for any evidence if it had ever been tuned, tuned and reflashed to stock, etc. I'm not saying something 10 years old from VAG can't be reliable (they can) but they don't suffer neglect very well. And by the time a car gets to the "third owner" timeframe, that third owner may have bought a "nice car cheap" but is unloading it now due to maintenance costs.
Unrelated, but the thread tripped a memory: a guy at work had a VW Jetta TDI Cup car for a few years, maybe around 2010-2012. I don't recall that the motor was any different than stock, but it had a warmed-over suspension and some body kit. I gave VW points for trying something a little different.
Wife had ALH Jetta ('01) for like 6 years, and now working on, I think, 6th year of ownership of a 2015 TDI Golf Sportwagen. Knock on wood, aside from routine wear items, one v-band clamp that disappeared from the downpipe and a headlight bulb that's a major PITA to change, it's been great.
The '01 ended up with a bent rod from (as best we could tell) an injector fault that essentially was slowly, partially, hydro-locking one cylinder. Put another rod in that and ran it through 3 different animal strikes (two deer and a raccoon "the size of a German Shepherd"). I did the bodywork myself after each wreck with steadily diminishing quality/cares. Couldn't get her to go new car shopping. I told her one day that I was done. Wasn't fixing anything else, was only doing oil changes, she was on her own. She called me at work like 2 months after I declared that and said it was stuck in reverse. I stuck to my guns and didn't even attempt to diagnose or repair. Traded it for a rifle, still stuck in reverse. And then we bought the current GSW.
To dculberson's point, I remind her when she's evualting other cars based on $/mile alone, her car is roughly equivalent to a gas car (regular unleaded) that's in the low to mid-30mpg range, depending on fuel prices.
My experience was also with an ALH model, purchased new in 2003 when nobody cared much about diesels and while the fuel costs were more than RUG, it still worked out if you drove as much as I did at the time (30K+ miles/year).
I agree maintenance records are everything when it comes to any VAG turbo vehicle and especially a TDI. They do NOT tolerate cheap/incorrect oil. If I were shopping for another TDI, I'd be more inclined to pay a bit more buying one from a TDIClub member who keeps meticulous records.
I'd start with checking to see if you have an independent shop nearby that's knowledgeable about TDIs. Have you checked the mileage on the Passats with the the 2.5L gas 5 cylinder? Those engines are supposed to be very reliable.
My parents had three TDIs that they converted to run on veggie oil. A second fuel (waste fryer oil) tank was put in the spare tire well. The veggie oil tank had a heater coil in it. Start & turn the car off on regular diesel and switch to veggie once it's up to temperature.
They liked the MKIVs they owned was the best (2004ish). Mom said they were faster/lighter than than the MKV (2009 or 2010). The newer TDIs weren't able to be converted due to complexity of fuel & emissions. For most of their ownership they had a VW trained tech who did side work nearby. He was really good to them...but once he moved out-of-state ownership became more difficult. Each one eventually became too old & finnicky. They bought a Honda Clarity plug-in Hybrid, which will go somewhere around 30 miles on battery, then the gas motor kicks in for support (like a traditional hybrid). It's very efficient & I like driving it...but the fuel tank is very small (~7 gallons), so it's not a great car for longer trips. They were all pretty reliable and didn't seem to have issues worse than any other VW of that vintage.
I nearly bought a CPO TDI Jetta just before dieselgate. I'm interested in hearing more about the ownership experience today. High Pressure Fuel Pump is a known failure on these cars...failure sends metal shavings throughout the fuel system...fixing it is very labor intensive. I'm commuting a bit more these days, but I focus more on avoiding depreciation & having something I like driving than fuel economy. If I needed a high-mileage driver I'd probably just buy a gas powered economy sedan. There are lots of options that get close to 40 mpgs w/out hybrid or diesel complexity.
I absolutely love diesel, so I applaud the TDI idea... with a caveat.
VAG likes to hold on to parts patents for ridiculously long, so many parts are dealer-only, and they charge insane prices. I replaced probably 100 oil vent tubes on VW stuff. They are made from the flimsiest plastic. It's basically made from split wire loom that isn't split. It self-destructs at the mere sight of hydrocarbons. At the time, it was only available from the dealer for $181 wholesale. It used insanely proprietary ovoid o-ring connectors that it defied replacing it with $6 of parts store rubber hose. It just rubs me the wrong way that a company goes to insane engineering just to force you to buy the replacement part, and then holds the patent for too long, and charges you three arms and two legs for a part that should cost $12.
And, since it's a VW, it will have a lot of dumb stuff that you'll think will be a cheap fix.... but they aren't. Need a front motor mount? Prepare for a 4.5 hour job that requires more spatial awareness skills than solving a rubix cube. Need to do a timing belt? Prepare to buy special tools to keep everything aligned, because the injector pump runs off the timing belt. Need a CV axle? You'll have to buy a whole set of triple-square sockets, which are like a 12-point torx that will 100% strip the head and require grinding off.
Just a month ago, I was looking for the same exact thing you are. I have a gas van for work that gets 15 mpg. I wanted a cheap commuter for times when I didn't need the van for van things. I was considering a TDI (or other small diesel), and pretty much anything was on the table that returned better than 35 mpg and didn't suck the soul out of my body with boredom. The hands-down answer was Prius. Better MPG than a TDI (not to mention significantly cheaper fuel), and much simpler/cheaper to work on.
I ended up with a 2012 Prius C, and my best fuel efficiency was over 70 mpg, but it consistently gets 55+. Even with my girlfriend borrowing it this week while her Kia gets fixed, she's still getting 44-48 mpg putting her foot to the floor every time a light turns green. I think people get bogged down with misconceptions, but they're actually quite simple critters with near-bulletproof reliability.
Diesel used to be my go-to, but since the new EPA regulations came out in 2008, they have had to become VERY complex to comply with gubmint emissions.... so complex that it was easier for VW to just cheat - hence dieselgate.
I would still consider a TDI, but only because I spent 7 years running auto repair shops and saw so many VWs in my bays that I'm at least familiar with how to fix their foibles. I personally wouldn't choose one to send my kids on a long road trip in one. The probability of it leaving them stranded isn't high, per se, but exponentially higher than a Corolla, Prius, Bolt, Spark, or Focus.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Sometimes I miss my TDI, but reading the first part gave me a tinge of PTSD... I bought my car in 2003 when "TDI Gurus" were not easy to find and taking a car to a dealer was a crap-shoot if your car was assigned to the one guy at the dealer who really knew how to work on a TDI. The end result was I bought the tools and did all of the maintenance and repair work on the car myself. This worked for me for 328K miles of driving and a bit over 10 years. By the time I stopped driving the car in 2013 to replace the turbo assembly the price of diesel vs. gas had severely cut into the cost-per-mile benefit. 2003 was the last year of the "old school" ALH engine with minimal emissions controls, the lower pressure fuel pump and is fairly easy to maintain.
If the stars align I could see owning a diesel again once my E-350 finally leaves, but it would really have to be a specific use-case and as much for the novelty of it than for any potential cost-savings.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Thank you for the -very- well thought out response! And I was really surprised that most of our brethren on here are thinking the same way. knowledge is good.
SPG123 said:In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Thank you for the -very- well thought out response! And I was really surprised that most of our brethren on here are thinking the same way. knowledge is good.
No problem. I think TDIs can be a great choice, and they'll be pretty reliable, but compared to the other (especially Japanese/Korean) options, they aren't what I would call reliable by comparison. Then when something does fail, it's often neither easy nor cheap to fix. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool muscle car guy, and I dabble in autocross, so I was afraid the Prius would quickly suck the joy out of life. It doesn't at all. 99hp is more than enough to feel vaguely peppy, and the handling is remarkably crisp, meaning you can make use of momentum. It's the opposite of my big V8 marshmallow van. I have to slow down so much for any curve that I'm back on the throttle hard to get back up to speed, but the Prius just digs in. I was also pleasantly surprised by the isolation from road noise. Most econoboxes are devoid of sound deadening for weight reasons, and wind/tire noise usually drives you nuts. The Prius is still a bit on the noisy side, but nowhere near something like a Fiat 500 or a Nissan Versa.
Not trying to sell you on a Prius, but just offering a perspective of why I went the way I did.
I've got two TDI's in the stable right now and both need either a DPF replacement or the delete tunes with delete pipes. The cost for either one is about a wash. Only with that delete will the gas mileage be remotely competitive to modern gas cars. As mentioned above the price for diesel is high which negates most savings. I'm probably going to sell my Jettawagen and go back to gas. If my daughter finds a car she likes better the Audi will go too. I took a few years off of TDI ownership but have been quickly reminded why I walked away from them. It never seems to be the $100 part, it's always $1000. My biggest complaint is how long it takes to warm up in the winter even with heated seats.
The heat issue isn't true for every TDI. When I worked for the People's Car Company I had a '12 Passat TDI with Climatronic and an electric preheater. Not sure which years got that, but it was the bee's knees - instant warm air and the temperature control was on point, absolutely set and forget. It's the only car with a graded temp knob that I found to actually work.
Would it work 13 years later? That's another question.
I had a 2012 TDI Jetta 6 speed for 18 months and 18k miles. I spent more time with a canary yellow Beetle loaner as the dealer was literally replacing everything on it non stop. HPFP, EGR, taillights filled with water in rain, cigarette lighter short, DPF errors....eventually they Lemon law bought it back. By now they should be sorted but I'm in the "Get a Prius" camp.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:Need to do a timing belt? Prepare to buy special tools to keep everything aligned, because the injector pump runs off the timing belt.
I've done many and never needed any fancy tools.
Need a CV axle? You'll have to buy a whole set of triple-square sockets, which are like a 12-point torx that will 100% strip the head and require grinding off.
XZN are far superior to Allen capscrews because they DON'T strip, which is why VWAG and other makes use it in places where the fastener is super critical, like axles and bellhousing bolts and flywheel parts. They have a steeper pressure angle and effectively have four times as much area for the tool to grab.
It's also 2025. Having concern over having to buy a special tool that has been out for a long time (the set in my toolbox is old enough to vote) is like complaining that you gotta buy metric tools for all these furrin cars. Which, I understand, is the main reason people still buy Dodge trucks since they still use SAE fasteners for a lot of places and a lot of people feel irrationally strongly about that.
I will say the common rail TDIs have a simple timing belt replacement that doesn't require near the accuracy of the older models. Also the tools I bought to do the last 3 belts was like $15 on amazon so it's not crazy expensive either.
Heat works great in our Cayenne diesel and worked great in my recently sold Touareg diesel.
Volkswagen had already released a good TDI replacement before they were forced to stop selling them in the USA.
It's the GTI. My 2015 Mk7 got 35+ MPG, and often beat 40 on freeway trips. It also did things like lighting up the tires on the 3-4 shift in the rain, beating up on those poor V8s on the dragstrip, and setting a laptime at the kart track that would've put me on pole for four-cycle senior.
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