In reply to Datsun310Guy :
I miss Santa Fe speedway. Went down to Joliet dirt track around Halloween but left early since it was so lame.
In reply to Datsun310Guy :
I miss Santa Fe speedway. Went down to Joliet dirt track around Halloween but left early since it was so lame.
Also Flatrock Motorsports park just opened in Tennessee.
GPz11 (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Datsun310Guy :
I miss Santa Fe speedway.
Legend was when sitting near the corners it was expected to have clay clumps flipped into your beer.
This isn't a winning scenario. It never has and it never will be. It's played out numerous times all over the country and 99% of the time the HOA, builders and their deeper legal pockets will win. The only way to spin this is to sell the land to them at a huge profit and invest that into a new facility. Fighting it legally usually ends up with a broker ownership group, no track and land for sale cheap. It's happened in the DFW area about 6 times in the past decade. The only way out of it is to get your racing venue declared a historical site. Even then, you probably won't be allowed to use it due to noise statutes that will be imposed as soon as the HOAs come in. If you think the tax revenue and political power of a race track will ever beat 1000s of homes, you aren't good at math.
In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :
Not sure you're paying attention, or understand how this works.
Lawyers can sway the argument one way or another, but generally the county commissioners have the final say in what gets put where, and they have to follow what the county zoning ordinances and statutes lay out. The commissioners here seem to be inclined to support the track.
The zoning laws for that area well east of I-75 are favorable to BMP/FF. But there is a lot of money trying to change that.
In reply to Mr_Asa :
Not sure you are paying attention. You can get new commissioners and will if they don't support the developers. The other thread was about money and so is this one. That throws the right thing right out the window.
In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :
If you had watched the tail end of the meeting, at least 5 commissioners voiced the need for a variance or amendment to protect the tracks in question. That's on top of the notion, both parties need to come to the table and just get along. Do I see that happening? No. I feel it will turn into a mutual meeting at some asinine time and day and then it'll be a "didn't bring everything we need." bs from the developer and then they will argue "it was in good faith. We don't have to agree to E36 M3."
JMO
Unless you can bribe the county with more money than the developers are, i dont think we are going to win. And yes, i am 100% suggesting that developers are greasing up local politicians and county officials to get what they want.
im in volusia county, developers own this place. They are now seeking approval to put houses on lots smaller than previously allowed. Im sure the deal is already done before the "public hearing" ever takes place.
I'd love to see some kind of legal protection for a pre-existing track in this scenario. Much along the lines of the standing railroads have. A town, new housing development, etc. can't just build up and then say "hey railroad, you're too noisy and we don't like having you running between our houses, so we're gonna sue and make you leave". Nope, the railroad was there and operating when the houses were built, so it's there to stay.
rslifkin said:I'd love to see some kind of legal protection for a pre-existing track in this scenario. Much along the lines of the standing railroads have. A town, new housing development, etc. can't just build up and then say "hey railroad, you're too noisy and we don't like having you running between our houses, so we're gonna sue and make you leave". Nope, the railroad was there and operating when the houses were built, so it's there to stay.
All you need is to generate enough revenue to hire lobbyists. The RR's did that back in 18XX and still have a bunch of antiquated laws that always work in their favor. Like the fact that their rent-a-cops can pursue you across state lines and have full police powers - bit different than a mall cop. And Social Security? That's just for non RR workers. Just sayin, get the lobbyists and you can do as you please.
weedburner said:Noise seems to be the biggest problem, could EV's be the answer?
1) No
B) Tires, people, and crowds (if there are crowds for an EV race) still make noise and produce traffic
3) No
OHSCrifle said:Anyone who thinks Manatee County will decide not to add 4,500 houses -- each taxed at $5,000 or more PER YEAR - is crazy.
Garrett is gonna have to buy the surrounding land to win this round. His son will eventually develop the land for houses, take a huge windfall profit and close the track.
Capitalism is the best.
Ah yes the local government approving the zoning and building permits so they can profit off the taxes these homes will provide. Doodoo local gov't is just as much at fault as free market capitalism Karl.
Now that I've got my snarky responses out of the way...
I don't know if there is much we as enthusiast can do other than pool together to purchase the local property surrounding these tracks, which will never happen.
We have to deal with corrupt local gov'ts who will benefit significantly from scenarios like this in the terms of tax dollars and whatever spiffs the developers offer them. Then if the homes are built you have to do with the people who don't do their due diligence before moving somewhere and a populous that has becoming increasingly litigious for even the most minor inconvenience in their life, and the deep pockets of developers who seek out these kind of deals like D.R. Horton.
I have gripes against urban sprawl for additional reasons on top of it killing our race tracks, it's killing some natural beauty of some areas of the country too.
These local govts don't seem to care that it's a place for youths to find a hobby or get off the street (in terms of racing), or a boost to the local economy because the neighborhood development will net them more profit. It's a different version of the PBIR scenario.
I've been following this topic, and will share some thoughts.
When I lived in Bradenton (moved away in 2006), the Speedway was still open. My neighborhood of about sixty homes had at least five of them with a mini stock race car parked in the garage. I wonder what the FF has done to get back some of the community support from those former racers and their fans by offering them some events. My guess is, probably nothing.
FAST, the Tampa area and west central Florida autocross club, has been in active for the last few years, and part due to difficulty getting venues. Although it wouldn't probably be a usable site since none of the parking lots are paved, I think that local autocross supporters had been looking at the possibility of getting events there after he put in the drift pads in the infield.
Even if it wouldn't work for autocross, he might have been able to host some rallicross events. More local support probably wouldn't make a difference, but it wouldn't hurt. Keep in mind, locals can vote in local elections.
Big picture:
Developers always get their way in Florida. It's been like that for over a century. Here's a current example and a couple of historical examples.
I'm in Volusia county also, and a golf course just got approved for development. The property was used as a golf course because it had originally been the "dump," back in the time when these sites would get everything short of nuclear waste dumped in them. The golf course worked for the location since the soil didn't have to be disturbed. Despite that, there's going to be homes built there.
This was approved despite there being another neighborhood here that was built around a golf course had a cluster of cancer cases (many in children) and neurological disorders.
One of the residents brought her pet to my office. Her tremors were so severe and continuous that she was probably 20 pounds underweight. She told me that she was expected to be dead within six months, and she was young enough to have a toddler and one in elementary school.
There's a neighborhood and school in the Orlando area that was built on a WWll live fire range. There's unexploded artillery shells, rockets, grenades, etc. and probably a whole lot of lead.
The FF supporters and Garret do have vague but sincere sounding verbal commitments from the local politicians. Look back at the last hundred years and see how that usually works out. The developers will fund their own candidates and get their way.
This is a pipe dream...take it with a grain of salt.
For a long time now I've had this idea. Build an actual race track country club type community. Think Ozark International raceway with homes dotted about on 10 acre tracts. The race track is the neighborhood road 90+ percent of the time. Restrictive covenants to require at least one trailer parked in plain view at any time. Shop space must not be less than 90% of the finished square footage of the home. The dragstrip doubles as a runway. Further buffer areas of off road trails for homeowner and/or member use (Side-by-sides, trucks, horses...I don't know). Heck...include a golf course as well.
Unfortunately, this would price all but the wealthiest folks out of the actual "live at the racetrack community" reality. However...it would provide a venue that would be protected by covenants.
I'll never pursue it...feel free to make it your own. Sign me up as a potential, low-level investor.
The other thing, as has been brought up earlier in the thread is to plan an industrial park or area with a Racetrack at the center of it.
The key is to BE the neighbor or plan for a neighbor who either values or does not complain about the race activities.
Metaphorically speaking: You can't fight the forces of nature when building houses, roads, etc. You need to plan for the forces and work with them. The same goes for societal forces. And we racing folk have the short end of the stick in that regard.
High Plains Raceway was built by the loca clubs, SCCA, PCA, etc, etc. It was purposefully put way out on farm land, with nothing really around it. At some point that might no long be farm land, but at least for awhile, it'll be safe. Pueblo Motorsports Park is owned by the city, nothing really around it either.
The problem is when the land becomes more valuable around the track, that's when the developers start to pay attention.
Decades ago, I worked for a good size developer in SoCal. Listening to the managers talk one day about some issue or other, the guy said "am I calling as the company manager, or the mayor?
Local mayors of small cities didn't make any money back in the day, don't know of that's changed. Afaik, it's usually business people that are the primary participants in local gov't. Most of us rarely pay attention to local gov't.
I usually disagree with Alfa Driver on topics of any substance, but in this case, I agree whole heartedly. Work with and win hearts and minds.
Maybe in nearby areas, leastways for auto-x, clubs should hold social events at local eateries and such, bring some value to local business. Bringing out the "race cars" out the day before, get them all stickered up (or maybe some are permanently stickered up?) might be fun for everyone, wear the SCCA shirts so you get questions, build good will. And nobody do stupid stuff leaving the event, btw...
In Phoenix a while back, the home owners were complaining about jet noise at the AFB (that used to be outside of town). How you can buy a house next to an AFB and then complain is beyond me, but, there you have it.
Motorsports are probably not as well supported as national defense among the populace, the struggle is real....
The other factor in all of this is how peoples interests change with time and transitions to subsequent generations. That's been a big factor in the loss of the horse race tracks. We've discussed elsewhere in this forum how it appears that fewer young people are interested in cars outside of necessary transportation needs.
ГУЛАГ мальчик УР следующий said:In Phoenix a while back, the home owners were complaining about jet noise at the AFB (that used to be outside of town). How you can buy a house next to an AFB and then complain is beyond me, but, there you have it.
I believe that would be Luke AFB. There is also a race track at the south end of the base - Arizona Motorsports Park. The track operates under mandatory sound level and operational rules.
There was a similar situation in SoCal with Riverside Int'l and March AFB being very close by. RIR is a housing development now. The base is a Museum - not sure if any flights go in or out now.
Competitive kart racing coming to northeast Ohio Land was gifted for a kart track because of the several EPA violations that make it uninhabitable, I contacted the track owner this year because it was supposed to open in September, it was pushed back to next year April. Looks like there are some giant hurdles to still make it happen. I am hopeful because it's 20 minutes away. If this does work perhaps it could be a model for other track builds.
PowerPoint Presentation Phase 2 is supposed to be a dirt track.
L5wolvesf said:ГУЛАГ мальчик УР следующий said:In Phoenix a while back, the home owners were complaining about jet noise at the AFB (that used to be outside of town). How you can buy a house next to an AFB and then complain is beyond me, but, there you have it.
I believe that would be Luke AFB. There is also a race track at the south end of the base - Arizona Motorsports Park. The track operates under mandatory sound level and operational rules.
There was a similar situation in SoCal with Riverside Int'l and March AFB being very close by. RIR is a housing development now. The base is a Museum - not sure if any flights go in or out now.
March is still a reserve base with KC-135s.
ClemSparks said:This is a pipe dream...take it with a grain of salt.
For a long time now I've had this idea. Build an actual race track country club type community. Think Ozark International raceway with homes dotted about on 10 acre tracts. The race track is the neighborhood road 90+ percent of the time. Restrictive covenants to require at least one trailer parked in plain view at any time. Shop space must not be less than 90% of the finished square footage of the home. The dragstrip doubles as a runway. Further buffer areas of off road trails for homeowner and/or member use (Side-by-sides, trucks, horses...I don't know). Heck...include a golf course as well.
Unfortunately, this would price all but the wealthiest folks out of the actual "live at the racetrack community" reality. However...it would provide a venue that would be protected by covenants.
I'll never pursue it...feel free to make it your own. Sign me up as a potential, low-level investor.
The other thing, as has been brought up earlier in the thread is to plan an industrial park or area with a Racetrack at the center of it.
The key is to BE the neighbor or plan for a neighbor who either values or does not complain about the race activities.
Metaphorically speaking: You can't fight the forces of nature when building houses, roads, etc. You need to plan for the forces and work with them. The same goes for societal forces. And we racing folk have the short end of the stick in that regard.
That is the model Motor Enclave in Tampa and one in Orlando seems to be doing with condos/apartments. But like you mention, it seems to price out anyone but the exotic car owners. The track also seems geared towards them with the types of cars they drive.
ClemSparks said:This is a pipe dream...take it with a grain of salt.
For a long time now I've had this idea. Build an actual race track country club type community. Think Ozark International raceway with homes dotted about on 10 acre tracts. The race track is the neighborhood road 90+ percent of the time. Restrictive covenants to require at least one trailer parked in plain view at any time. Shop space must not be less than 90% of the finished square footage of the home. The dragstrip doubles as a runway. Further buffer areas of off road trails for homeowner and/or member use (Side-by-sides, trucks, horses...I don't know). Heck...include a golf course as well.
Unfortunately, this would price all but the wealthiest folks out of the actual "live at the racetrack community" reality. However...it would provide a venue that would be protected by covenants.
I'll never pursue it...feel free to make it your own. Sign me up as a potential, low-level investor.
Maybe a cheaper version of this idea could still work without being more outrageously expensive than ordinary real estate? When property is bought for a race track, try to buy nearby land to develop a track-friendly neighborhood. Healthy-sized driveways and garages, some nearby space reserved as industrial for shops, HOA rules that amount to "no typical HOA-style bullE36 M3, trailers and cars on jack stands are not only permitted but encouraged, don't act surprised or complain about the noise even if someone drives an uncorked rotary on the track, also property owners are entitled to X free track days per year" By the time the surrounding town of Racertopia is established, the only people who would want to live there would want the track to be there, and thus the track's future is secured.
In reply to ГУЛАГ мальчик УР следующий :
Study up on the John Wayne Airport in Santa Ana, CA - move next to airport then complain.
I knew enough to not buy a house near Chicago's Midway Airport.
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