The future of our current overly-complex automobiles?

93gsxturbo wrote: I am eagerly awaiting the standardization of the modern automobile. Like how all the PCs, printers, faxes, phones, etc in your office all talk to each other on a common standard, hopefully soon automakers will realize it benefits all of them to share a standard for inter-module communication. Diagnostics then becomes very simple. Use a diagnostic tool to verify proper inputs and outputs, and a door module is a door module, just needs to have the ROM in the door module reflashed to work in the manner your chassis expects it to. Ideally just read the ROM on the old, bad module, and flash it to the new, blank module. Failing that, hop on the system of tubes and download the new flash, or maybe the manufacturer of the module has a repository available of all the ROMs that work on that module and you just pick the one you want. Diagnosing issues on modern cars is super easy. I hook my TechII into the OBDII port on my Corvette and go to the door control module screen. From there, I can view the status of all inputs and outputs, test switches, and command inputs to the module to see if the outputs are working well. Instead of diagnosing 1 million feet of wire, switches, etc, I only need a power, ground, and signal wires run to the door, all the intra-door communication and function is handled by the door module. The wire runs are short, less failure-prone, and easy to check. The modules, while by themselves seem expensive, keep in mind this is a world I can buy a touchscreen tablet for $100, a standardized module with a few relays and transistors is not an expensive item. Plug it in, talk to the module, load the ROM, and you are in business! This also opens up a huge opportunity for customization. Want auto-roll-down windows? Open up the rom, change a few lines of code, load your new custom rom, and boom! Auto roll down windows with no hardware changes whatsoever. Want your windows to be able to be rolled up when you hit the remote on your lock fob? A few lines of code referencing the status of the keyless entry module and you have it!

is this an argument for or against more technology in cars, because you just pointed out everything that i hate about new cars.. why does a car need a "door module"?

i remember when i got to ride with one of GM's head engineers in a Z06 Corvette as we idled around the MN state fairgrounds at the Car Craft show in '08.. i asked him how a person was supposed to get out of the car if the car was smashed up in a ditch and the car lost all power since the doors opened by pushing buttons.. he didn't have an answer and told me that they didn't even consider the ability to get out of their super duper street legal race car in situations like that..

he was one of the bosses of the group of engineers that couldn't figure out why the LS7 powered Solstice that they had built just died out of nowhere while cruising around the same fairgrounds on the same day- they had scan tools hooked up testing every module and couldn't figure it out.. one bystander asked them if they checked to see if it was out of gas- they never thought of that.. they dumped a couple of gallons of gas in it and it started right up.. that car was badass, as long as it had gas in it..

irish44j wrote: back in the day there were such diagnostic systems as well. they were referred to as "gauges other than a speedo/tach/fuel" and they could tell most any competent mechanic or garage wrencher most of what could be wrong with their engine...

Not throw water on your argument.. I remember in 1978 Fiat stopped putting an oilpressure gage in their spider. Not because the engine never had oiling problems.. but because the Fiat TwinCam runs low oilpressure at idle.. people were constantly bringing them back into the dealers to get the pressure"fixed"

mad_machine wrote:

irish44j wrote: back in the day there were such diagnostic systems as well. they were referred to as "gauges other than a speedo/tach/fuel" and they could tell most any competent mechanic or garage wrencher most of what could be wrong with their engine...

Not throw water on your argument.. I remember in 1978 Fiat stopped putting an oilpressure gage in their spider. Not because the engine never had oiling problems.. but because the Fiat TwinCam runs low oilpressure at idle.. people were constantly bringing them back into the dealers to get the pressure"fixed"

they couldn't just put a generic gauge in it with a well defined "normal" range that the needle would be pointing right at the center of during normal operation? Ford's been doing that since forever. well ,they did until at least the early 90's anyways. they had the same kind of temp gauge, too.

mad_machine wrote:

irish44j wrote: back in the day there were such diagnostic systems as well. they were referred to as "gauges other than a speedo/tach/fuel" and they could tell most any competent mechanic or garage wrencher most of what could be wrong with their engine...

Not throw water on your argument.. I remember in 1978 Fiat stopped putting an oilpressure gage in their spider. Not because the engine never had oiling problems.. but because the Fiat TwinCam runs low oilpressure at idle.. people were constantly bringing them back into the dealers to get the pressure"fixed"

hey those are Lucas gauges, so I hardly think all (or most) of them read accurately. That said, I know what they read when the car is running well, so if they do something else I'll have an idea on what's wrong.

That said, that GT6 has literally never had an engine problem since 1971 worse than a stuck carb float. It's had every OTHER problem, but never the engine....which also has never been rebuilt :)

Complexity for no benefit is what gets to me. My father's 96 MB SL320 has a computer and 20+ actuators to raise and lower the top. The computer, that is bad on his car, is $4800. The little hydraulic cylinder that latches the top to the windshield puked the seals and dumped hydraulic fluid all over the visor and carpet. The cost for the cylinder? $390. Sorry, that's crap. That top doesn't work any better than the top on the 58 Edsel that resides two doors down from my office, and at this point works significantly worse.

Anything that makes the car run better, preform better or be more efficient I'm good with. The rest of it, you can take your modules, security system, TC, SC, ABS, TPS, PW, PL, HUD, FLIR, KE, PTS and any number of electronic helpers with acronyms and pitch them. I'll roll down my own damn windows and turn my own key thank you.

Case in point, my wife's 2002 Jeep Liberty. Bought used for cheap because of broken power windows, an insane security system, broken power locks, and an electronic speedometer that works when it wants to. Stupid crap that really doesn't have anything to do with getting from one place to the other.

Why yes, I am a Luddite. I say as I type this on my laptop, while I listen to my cloud stored MP3s, played from my smart phone, through a Bluetooth dongle to my stereo.

Technology is a great thing, but car companies are prone to take it too far.

Edited to change the MB from 69 to 96. Damn dyslexia.

novaderrik wrote:

mad_machine wrote:

irish44j wrote: back in the day there were such diagnostic systems as well. they were referred to as "gauges other than a speedo/tach/fuel" and they could tell most any competent mechanic or garage wrencher most of what could be wrong with their engine...

Not throw water on your argument.. I remember in 1978 Fiat stopped putting an oilpressure gage in their spider. Not because the engine never had oiling problems.. but because the Fiat TwinCam runs low oilpressure at idle.. people were constantly bringing them back into the dealers to get the pressure"fixed"

they couldn't just put a generic gauge in it with a well defined "normal" range that the needle would be pointing right at the center of during normal operation? Ford's been doing that since forever. well ,they did until at least the early 90's anyways. they had the same kind of temp gauge, too.

That's exactly what Mazda did in 1995-05. They took out the real oil pressure gauge and replaced it with one that was basically an idiot light. If the car has more than 7 psi of pressure, the gauge says "it's all good". It's driven off a switch. Interestingly, the real gauge is back now if memory serves.

I can tell a whole lot more about what's going on inside my BMW's engine with a generic scan tool than I can tell from the gauges in my Mini or Land Rover. Plus it monitors a whole bunch of other parameters and lets me know when they get out of range. If I had a gauge for each one, my dash would look like a pre-glass 747.

ok, so the world is a great place for you. but I lack the equipment and training to interface with can bus technology. sadly I've chosen other things as a profession.

novaderrik wrote: is this an argument for or against more technology in cars, because you just pointed out everything that i hate about new cars.. why does a car need a "door module"?

Because a door module is a cheaper, more effective, and more efficient way of operating complex functions. Decentralized modules, all talking on a CAN, are much more efficient than a single module and miles of wire or mechanical switches/relays/timers and traditional wires.

93gsxturbo wrote:

novaderrik wrote: is this an argument for or against more technology in cars, because you just pointed out everything that i hate about new cars.. why does a car need a "door module"?

Because a door module is a cheaper, more effective, and more efficient way of operating complex functions. Decentralized modules, all talking on a CAN, are much more efficient than a single module and miles of wire or mechanical switches/relays/timers and traditional wires.

Exactly. Just look at the ISIS system for wiring up a car now. There are 3 to 5 modules that run on CAN bus that run the whole car, besides the PCM if equipped. Each module is programmable for increased or decreased functionality.

Second the ISIS system!

My neighbor's Jeep Patriot has a headlight that won't work. Of course, it's not the bulb. It's the "Totally Integrated Power Module" which costs $900 + installation and programming. So it will cost him $1200 to make one light turn on.

Notably, I also own a Jeep Patriot.

My dream of daily driving a 1964 Ford Falcon is sounding better every day.

93gsxturbo wrote:

novaderrik wrote: is this an argument for or against more technology in cars, because you just pointed out everything that i hate about new cars.. why does a car need a "door module"?

Because a door module is a cheaper, more effective, and more efficient way of operating complex functions. Decentralized modules, all talking on a CAN, are much more efficient than a single module and miles of wire or mechanical switches/relays/timers and traditional wires.

rolling down windows and turning on dome lights are considered "complex functions" these days?

telling a solenoid to move a locking mechanism on a door latch is "complex"?

making a light blink to indicate which direction you want to turn is "complex"?

this is all stuff that was done with a few pounds of wiring and a few switches until not too long ago, and if something went wrong you could trace it with a test light and wiggle a ground wire to find where the problem was.