The perspective of a Challenge judge...

Let me see if I can clear this up for those confused souls out there.  The challenge show is NOT a concours d' elegance.  Rather it is a concours d' innovante.​​​​​​

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :

I like that!

SVreX said:

spitfirebill said:

So a bone stock Miata that is clean and with good paint gets a low score for innovation? 

I'd say that is correct. 

From the rules:

“Innovation” covers things like design, engineering, creativity and modifications.

 

It might, however, get a 10 for Execution. 

Thanks for 'splaing all of this.  I had a bit of a hardon for the Concours scores over the years.  This totally makes sense.    

In reply to SVreX :

And you didn't even have to use your French-English dictionary.

In reply to GTXVette :

Thanks for the love!  I spent a lot of time planning that monster out and thats only a preface to say...yeah, its a REALLY ugly car!  But, "looks good" was never on our list of design requirements!

The fresh judges probably helped a lot to make the car score better than a third year entry normally would.

In reply to SVreX :

So if I'm reading between the lines correctly, the current "execuction" portion of the concourse is more about about how well each individual/team executes on the vision for their individual car than it is just about fit-and-finish on a racecar?  In other words, have a clear vision and follow through on it...And if you can, make it pretty too.

Maybe an improvement (maybe not?) on the current formula would be to break it down into 5 categories of 5pts each?  Innovation for the implementation unusual or unusual for this budget performance enhancing ideas, Creativity in the utilization of available build resources, Execution of the design vision, Fit-and-Finish, and of course the Presentation itself.

In reply to HippieWagon :

"Third year entry"... the judges discussed that. 

Our consensus was that we were not really there to judge what has been accomplished THIS year, we were there to judge the car. (As a fellow competitor, I don't think a good Challenge car can be built in a year),

We judged what was sitting in front of us, and what was communicated to us. 

So, a car that was built 3 years ago but brought back unmolested would have earned score for everything we saw sitting in front of us.  

At the same time, Pat's Z was judged as a LS powered Z, but he also told us he first built it with a small block, so he probably earned an extra point for effort/ Execution/ Presentation. 

Calvin definitely earned a point or so for his classroom style presentation of his home built injector flow machine, as well as his many efforts to balance the injectors in his car. 

I now have an appreciation of how the Challenge is approached that I did not have before. Always figured the Concourse score was just a paint and polish award. My armchair scoring was mostly focused on the time-slips of the speed portions.

So you gotta be fast AND prove that you are a  Rock-Star- Rocket-Surgeon!

How hard can it be!?

NOHOME said:

I now have an appreciation of how the Challenge is approached that I did not have before. Always figured the Concourse score was just a paint and polish award. My armchair scoring was mostly focused on the time-slips of the speed portions.

 

So you gotta be fast AND prove that you are a  Rock-Star- Rocket-Surgeon!

 

How hard can it be!?

The scores the two late model Pontiacs got show that it is definitely not about paint and polish.  They were extremely clean, at least on the outside.  I am very glad I took the don’t judge me option on the ratty Miata.

Driven5 said:

In reply to SVreX :

So if I'm reading between the lines correctly, the current "execuction" portion of the concourse is more about about how well each individual/team executes on the vision for their individual car than it is just about fit-and-finish on a racecar?  In other words, have a clear vision and follow through on it...And if you can, make it pretty too.

With this year's batch of judges, that was definitely true. 

So, for example, Mr Nelson was surprised by his Concours score. Not much in spit and polish (and I could see fiberglass imperfections from 20' away).  HOWEVER, he wanted to build a 9 second dragster, and followed that vision through to the end. He then proved his Execution on the strip. 

Similarly, the Rowan team wanted to build a basic street car which could perhaps be the basis for an automotive program at their school. They fulfilled that vision, and their Presentation was exceptional. It earned them points. 

Don't forget...

When I say it "earned them points", it probably means it earned them 1 point, perhaps 2. 

That's less then 1% of the total potential score (although it's a much bigger percentage for a slow car). 

I noticed the high school Corolla and the Smith college Miata both scored really well in the concours. Which was nice to see.  Any insights on what they did well that bolstered their scores? 

SVreX said:

In reply to Bobzilla :

3 siblings whose Dad suggested they do this, then completely kept his hands off and let them build it themselves. 

Aged 16, 15, and 10.  The 15 yo daughter was the spokesperson, the 16 yo son did his own autoX driving.  The 10 yo may have been the enabler!   

They admitted they had not performed well, but had the biggest smiles of anyone at the event, and were a joy to judge. 

Their takeaway was that they learned an incredible amount.

I'd say they stand as a testimony to all the folks with excuses who don't bring a car.

I think they will be back, and that makes me happy! 

THAT is friggin awesome!

Been in meetings today so I'm a little late to the party, but thanks, Paul, for joining us as a judge this year. I enjoyed shepherding you guys around and meeting all of the teams. Everyone made it a great day.

I didn't see the scores. I wanted to remain impartial. I was told, however, that the scores were very consistent between the judges.

SVreX said:

Driven5 said:

In reply to SVreX :

So if I'm reading between the lines correctly, the current "execuction" portion of the concourse is more about about how well each individual/team executes on the vision for their individual car than it is just about fit-and-finish on a racecar?  In other words, have a clear vision and follow through on it...And if you can, make it pretty too.

With this year's batch of judges, that was definitely true. 

Seems simple enough to me...And generally speaking, I think I like that approach.

In reply to HippieWagon :

And just so you know I am the Long Hair that helped on Scoobi Doo, I live up 575 a few miles from North Ave.,  If there is any thing I can Do besides minding my own Business I would love to help. Taking Home the Jacket(pun intended) makes me say you all are on the right track. 

bigben said:

I noticed the high school Corolla and the Smith college Miata both scored really well in the concours. Which was nice to see.  Any insights on what they did well that bolstered their scores? 

2 completely different formulas. 

The Corolla was a very young team lead by a very competent teacher. They completely went the distance on the car (including a rotisserie and seam welding), but the kids each talked about what THEY did. It was clear they didn't just stand around and watch their teacher. They learned, they had their hands on it.  You should have heard the girl (with no previous appreciation for cars) who learned to seam weld the undercarriage- big smiles, she's a convert. It earned them points. 

The Smith car was an opposite kind of story. With apparently no support from the school (scared of liability), the team was driven by 1 student. Eventually the team dwindled to only 2 people- one did the work on the car, the other primarily marketing. The  young lady who was the team leader muscled through with shear grit and perseverance. It was obvious she was really scared of public speaking and presenting, but it was the last hurdle she had in a challenging journey to build the car. She made it, and did well.  It earned them points. 

There were several cars the judges said to each other, "Hey, they MADE it here"- THAT'S worth a few points. 

The scoring enabled us to give credit where credit was due. One team earned points because they gave us Girl Scout cookies (Samoas- Yeah!), and built a table out of car ramps.

I'm not saying we were bribed, I'm saying we noticed effort. And you don't have to be an engineer to earn points at the Challenge. 

Some of you noticed that the judges compared notes...

There weren't really any rules on how to judge. (There were rules on how to judge the car, but not how to do the judging). We kinda made it up. 

We ended up with a bit of a consensus approach. We gave our scores, then compared. Most of the time we were close, and left It alone. But sometimes we were different, and asked each other. 

"So, why did you score them so high on Innovation?"  "Well, didn't you notice they did this, and that, and this other thing that was really cool".  Sometimes this lead me to say things like, "You know something, you're right. I overlooked that. I need to bump my score a little". 

It worked the other way too. At one point, a judge looked over my shoulder and said, "What Innovation?  That's a bone stock Miata". I realized he was right, and I was letting my bias get in the way (as a fellow competitor, I'd been in those shoes, and I know how hard it is. I leaned toward empathetic at times).  I had to adjust my score. 

So, the judges ended up being both advocates for the competitors, and held each other accountable. 

I am very content with how we judged (although, I still haven't seen the total score sheet, and am certain there will be some overall Concours standings I'd like to adjust a little if I could). 

BTW- I generally hate consensus style of leadership and decision making. But it seemed to work well here (though nobody told me what to score- my scores were completely my responsibility). 

Hey, if it helps we're still awaiting the results of the car-show portion for Winged Warrior Event at IRP from 2009. 

Judges are different too. 

Example: the free Probe. (Not picking on pimpn)

The Probe looked terrific, but I had a hard time scoring it high, because Jeremy basically said he bought it that way and didn't do much. I wanted to reward effort, and my scores were a little lower because of that.

When I looked at another judge's scores, he was higher than me.  I said, "Yeah, but he bought it that way", and he said, "Who cares?  He figured outta way to get it here".

I realized he was right at some level- sometimes the Challenge is about "buying right", sometimes it's about "building right".

By the way, when I have judged other concours--Hilton Head, Pinehurst, Lemons, etc.--the judges work as a team and hand in one score per car. So just a little FYI.

This thread sort of has no context for any of us who were not at the challenge. Unless there is another thread that would provide the clear context for this one. I should say the first post did and then it didn't

Robbie said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to SVreX :

I stopped autocrossing 5 years ago.  I still have my GTV, which is somewhat ESP already.  I really don't need another one.  For that matter, I really need to get rid of a vintage race car.

Someone needs to call you out so I will be the bad guy:

You're doing a lot of bellyaching about how easy this is but at the same time just posting excuses for not doing it. You're quickly becoming the honorary armchair quarterback of the challenge! Plus, we need you on our x1/9 team.

So waddya say? Wanna join up?

That's fair.  Every year I get tempted to get back into racing, and quickly that subdues for some reason.  

I know I'm bitching.  Just that some people's bitching may be concerns of others.  

Other than the concourse, I really like how the Challenge has progressed since we ran.   I'd rather read about it than the annual AROC conventions- it's one of my favorite events.

Alfadriver, why not do a John Welsh and come with the goal of winning the party? The Challenge, at least to me, has become like Solo Nats: Yeah, it centers around a competition, but the socializing is what puts it over the top. And if you don't win, no one is going to shame you.