In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :
No one is turning a lap faster than this car for 1/2 the price let alone 1/10 while remaining street legal. I also think you missed a driver that falls between type B and C. Those willing to pay more money for more car. All the Boss 302/370Z/Cayman S/M3/Corvette/2SS 1LE drivers that out-grew their Miata/BRZ/Civic. It costs more money up front and in the long run, but it's more capable (and better sounding) as a result.
In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :
Except any Porsche GT car doesn't "rapidly" depreciate. Most of them don't depreciate at all. Yes, it's a crazy car market right now, but since 2010 all the 996 GT3's have appreciated and all the other GT cars haven't depreciated at all, selling minimally for sticker and most of them far over that.
Yeah I'm going to need to see proof that any gt3 had depreciated substantially. Even at their most depreciated I don't think any of them have been worth less than like 75% of MSRP. And that's at like ten years old, certainly not rapid by any means. As you'd expect they're all way up right now, but they were trending up slightly even pre-covid.
A few years ago a friend of mine nearly pulled the trigger on a 718 GTS. "Normal porsche" depreciation was the biggest thing that stopped him, and also how he talked himself into spending a few grand more on a 997.2 GT3 that he knew would barely depreciate, if at all. And of course now it's worth about 150% of what he paid for it.
Tom1200 said:In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :
We have 3-4 of these at every PCA event I attend. I nearly shate me-self when I heard one of the owners say he takes care of the engine becuase it costs 60K.
A guy at work money shifted his GT3. $60k was the total, but around half of that was a core charge. His solution was to purchase a Ginetta G56 GTA.
In reply to CAinCA :
Off topic a bit but I've been wanting a 911 since something like 1979 but should I buy a Porsche it will likely be a Cayman as I find, for me, 911 prices defy logic.
The other issue being I can by a hell of a pure race car for about half what a GT3-RS motor costs.
Going to be awe inspiring to see the plummet that is Porsche values during the next recession. Those that think there is some new paradigm shift that makes luxury goods forever increasing in value may get surprised when that depreciation curve starts roaring back to life.
Nothing has depreciated over the last 3 or 4 years. Doesn't mean it's a great investment decision for the next 3 or 4.....
It seems like this year at least, with the market down across the board and inflation pushing 8%, it might be a sound place to put one's money. Provided you can find one.
STM317 said:Savage machine!
Also, it's crazy that actual cars from real car companies are starting to look more and more like khyzhl saleem renderings:
I get what you're saying and I agree 100%
In reply to Olemiss540 :
Maybe, but they'll still likely depreciate less than just about anything else except maybe housing. If we get to the point that the market does drop out that thoroughly, we're probably going to have much bigger societal issues than a few expensive cars becoming worthless. In the last year my investment account has lost money but my porsche is probably worth at least as much now as it was at the beginning of the year. And it's not even a GT car.
350z247 said:In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :
No one is turning a lap faster than this car for 1/2 the price let alone 1/10 while remaining street legal.
I never said street legal. Once you abandon that requirement, a whole world of fast cars opens up. I took my buddy's 997.2 GT3 for a few laps around my home track. It was on street tires but I had to absolutely whip it to go 4-5 seconds a lap slower than my 135hp sport racer that costs maybe 25% as much. Radicals, Atoms, KTM's, etc. are all faster for far less money. And that's just closed wheel cars.
They're amazing cars with an amazing price tag and I agree that it's hard to do better for a street/track car.
In reply to dps214 :
Recency bias is real. Having a nice car is awesome (most on a car forum have to agree with that!) but justifying it as a sound financial decision is illiterate from a historical perspective and to think that has changed recently for decades moving forward you are fooling yourself.
Buying a gt3 is badass and will be a hell of a lot of fun! It is not a sound investment grade asset/decision. Luck does not a smart decision make.
In reply to Olemiss540 :
Yeah I guess I should clarify that I would never actually recommend that someone actually buy a car as an investment. And resale value only matters if you plan to sell the car. Which I don't, so all my cayman appreciating does for me is make track insurance more expensive which is annoying. But survey says that buying a 5-10 year old GT car has panned out to be a good investment every time, even before the last two years. Maybe it's luck but at some point luck becomes a market trend.
In reply to Olemiss540 :
You do realize that the people buying GT3s aren't affected by recessions right? Any Porsche GT is a good investment if you focus solely on the purchase and sale price. Obviously, you'll lose some money on insurance, gas, tires, oil, etc. They won't make you rich, but as far as expensive cars go, their depreciation is almost unmatched.
In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :
One of my fellow PCA instructors bought a newer Formula BMW (Formula 3 level car) and remarked he was belting out GT3-RS lap times. These cars can be had for 20-30K.
In reply to 350z247 :
You do realize that gt3s are selling for $100k adm? And gt3rs is probably $150k adm? How much are those cars worth 5 years from now? How about is the fed continues and force feeds us a recession and job losses start to stack?
Wasnt too many years ago I bought my 996 gt3 for 50k or 997 gt3s were 70k. Then the pandemic happened.
Olemiss540 said:In reply to 350z247 :
You do realize that gt3s are selling for $100k adm? And gt3rs is probably $150k adm? How much are those cars worth 5 years from now? How about is the fed continues and force feeds us a recession and job losses start to stack?
Wasnt too many years ago I bought my 996 gt3 for 50k or 997 gt3s were 70k. Then the pandemic happened.
You timed the 996 GT3 purchase perfectly! They suffered from the overall 996 dislike, even though they (and the 996 Turbo) are very different cars. That depreciation has evaporated now!
In reply to Olemiss540 :
Yeah, that was the low point, they were on their way back up even pre pandemic. And I'm not sure 997s were ever that cheap. My friend bought his .2 for $90k in 2018 and it was the cheapest non-salvage title one on the market by quite a bit. Yeah some new ones are selling with stupid high markups, but anybody paying that isn't planning on selling the car, or just doesn't care about depreciation. I'm sure there's plenty, probably the majority, that are selling with little to no markup, you just don't hear about those.
Just look at the sold chart on BAT. The first 6 or 7 auctions in 2017:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2005-porsche-gt3/
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2004-porsche-gt3/
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2004-porsche-911-gt3/
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2004-porsche-911-gt3-2/
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2004-porsche-911-gt3-3/
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2004-porsche-911-gt3-4/
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2007-porsche-911-gt3-2/
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2008-porsche-911-gt3-rs/
There's a 997 for $75k.
Any the low point for car values was probably more like 2011, 2010, etc. E30 m3's were availble in the teens back then. 2008 recession was right before........
Not that they will ever get that low again, but its just a market adjustment should be expected. Soooo much fed money was in the markets that 10% inflation became a thing since consumer spending got out of control.
Once the jobless rate hits 7 or 8% and spending is tamed due to 8% mortgages and 10% car loans, amaxing how these collector cars will all of a sudden become pits of depreciation IMO.
Again, I know I am coming off doomy gloomy, its just people have decided that buying inflated houses, rolex's, whiskey's, and sports cars can no longer lose money and have talked themselves into stretching for consumer goods in the sake of recent resale values. In reality its been driven by the supply not being able to keep up with this hot economy causing demand to overcook supply. That is cyclical and as things reverse, people can get decimated.
Buy a gt3rs because you can easily afford it and because they are amazing machines. Dont buy them because they are good investments and hold their value IMO.
In reply to Olemiss540 :
No one said "buy them because they are a great investments"; they said they hold their value better than other cars which is an undisputed fact. Special cars hold their value because they are special, especially with the electric future fastly approaching. Compare a GT3 to an SL63, and one will hold it's value way better. Either way, people making 500K a year don't care if their's a little inflation or recession going on. They'll complain some, but they'll keep buying things the way they always did.
CAinCA said:Tom1200 said:In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :
We have 3-4 of these at every PCA event I attend. I nearly shate me-self when I heard one of the owners say he takes care of the engine becuase it costs 60K.
A guy at work money shifted his GT3. $60k was the total, but around half of that was a core charge. His solution was to purchase a Ginetta G56 GTA.
Reminds me of a situation of my own doing, just scaled down. I built a one-off car (Midlana), putting money into it over time without really keeping tabs on the total - I wanted it to be "right." Eventually the car was done, and was everything I wanted. About the same time though, I realized that there was so much money in the drivetrain that I was afraid of breaking it. At trackday events, it was likely the fastest car there, at the hands of someone who doesn't care about expenses, but I did. As a result, it was never a very rewarding time, stressing about costs and potential damage than just driving. I can't imagine being tossed the keys to a GT3, with the note: "you'll of course be responsible for any damages." I'm guessing that it would be driven proportional to one's bank account.
In reply to kb58 :
And this is why, even if I had the wherewithal, I'd likely go with a single seater versus a high dollar 911.
Make no mistake though; these are phenomenal cars and if you do have the wherewithal they make a lot of sense for most people.
350z247 said:In reply to Olemiss540 :
No one said "buy them because they are a great investments"; they said they hold their value better than other cars which is an undisputed fact. Special cars hold their value because they are special, especially with the electric future fastly approaching. Compare a GT3 to an SL63, and one will hold it's value way better. Either way, people making 500K a year don't care if their's a little inflation or recession going on. They'll complain some, but they'll keep buying things the way they always did.
What exactly was said:
"Most of them don't depreciate at all. since 2010 all the 996 GT3's have appreciated and all the other GT cars haven't depreciated at all, selling minimally for sticker and most of them far over that."
"Even at their most depreciated I don't think any of them have been worth less than like 75% of MSRP. "
These statements are factually incorrect and driven by recency bias. Statements like these:
" In the last year my investment account has lost money but my porsche is probably worth at least as much now as it was at the beginning of the year."
Show the recent market driven absurdity relating to comparing "returns" of one's vehicle portfolio to stock market investing.
All I am saying is its going to be a painful hammer to hit when reality sets back in but I love you guys regardless of if your capital is deployed in collections of Racing Inspired Pcars. Maybe even more so.
In reply to Olemiss540 :
Please show me an example of a 997, 991, or 992 GT3 that has lost more than 25% of sticker prior to 2020. No one cares about the 996; that's a sore spot for Porsche. While they are not a long term money maker, they will not bankrupt you like other cars at similar MSRPs. Most will sell them for close to what they paid for it; the biggest problem is most won't want to sell them. Cars this expensive won't take the same hit during a recession as lesser cars. Car values are ridiculous, but rich people don't care. If you can afford one, they're an excellent choice. Honestly, it just sounds like someone is trying to make use of their economics degree.
350z247 said:In reply to Olemiss540 :
Please show me an example of a 997, 991, or 992 GT3 that has lost more than 25% of sticker prior to 2020. No one cares about the 996; that's a sore spot for Porsche. While they are not a long term money maker, they will not bankrupt you like other cars at similar MSRPs. Most will sell them for close to what they paid for it; the biggest problem is most won't want to sell them. Cars this expensive won't take the same hit during a recession as lesser cars. Car values are ridiculous, but rich people don't care. If you can afford one, they're an excellent choice. Honestly, it just sounds like someone is trying to make use of their economics degree.
That one 997.1 he posted above sold for 66% of its msrp (69% if you include the buyer fee). But it had high(ish) miles and two crashes on its carfax report so not really an indicator of the overall market.
I'm not saying there isn't a crash/readjustment of some extent coming to the overall market (I've been used car shopping recently, I think it's actually starting already), just that these cars are going to be close to the least affected thing, not the most affected.
dps214 said:350z247 said:In reply to Olemiss540 :
Please show me an example of a 997, 991, or 992 GT3 that has lost more than 25% of sticker prior to 2020. No one cares about the 996; that's a sore spot for Porsche. While they are not a long term money maker, they will not bankrupt you like other cars at similar MSRPs. Most will sell them for close to what they paid for it; the biggest problem is most won't want to sell them. Cars this expensive won't take the same hit during a recession as lesser cars. Car values are ridiculous, but rich people don't care. If you can afford one, they're an excellent choice. Honestly, it just sounds like someone is trying to make use of their economics degree.
That one 997.1 he posted above sold for 66% of its msrp (69% if you include the buyer fee). But it had high(ish) miles and two crashes on its carfax report so not really an indicator of the overall market.
I'm not saying there isn't a crash/readjustment of some extent coming to the overall market (I've been used car shopping recently, I think it's actually starting already, just that these cars are going to be close to the least affected thing, not the most affected.
I tend to agree with this. When you get to the very top end of any collectors market, prices are somewhat inelastic. The guys that have the money to buy the best vintage guitars, fine art, wine, etc. still have money no matter what the economy is doing. They're recession-proof.
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