Turbocharging an FR-S?

rotard wrote:

kanaric wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: Either MAP, Accelerated Performance, or Dynosty. http://youtu.be/xVbfUtxQ_sw Yup. I'll have what he's having. Sounds ridiculous: http://youtu.be/KK7Ad91BFic?t=29s 400whp from an off-the-shelf "stage 1" turbo kit. http://youtu.be/HK8Wtb97uLk

400whp? What with like e85, meth injection, or a built engine? youtu.be links don't work for me where i am so i can't see. On stock engines on regular 93 gas I don't think i've heard of people getting 300whp unless it's some crazy ego boosting dyno. The only person around here I heard of doing it made like 260whp on 91.

Pretty much what this guy has said. The FA20 isn't the stoutest engine out there, so I wouldn't try to push it too far. When you buy one of these cars, you just have to accept that unless you're wanting e85/meth injection on your daily driver, mid-high 200's is the most you will realistically get.

Isn't the stoutest engine out there, but has done over 600whp unopened?

I'm confused.

Other engines we call stout on this forum wouldn't even dream of doing that.

There's examples upon examples upon examples of people doing the numbers i'm talking about on pump 93. If you don't have access to 93 or E85, that's not the motor's problem, that's a problem with your location. If you don't want to run E85 or 93 on your turbo car, that's your choice, but has nothing to do with what the motor itself is capable of in the right hands.

The motor is stout as hell.

Yes, a 600hp dyno queen is definitely a great example of a streetable FA20. I bet the guy picks up his Big Mac through the drive-thru in it every day at lunch. Heck, it probably has 20k miles on it by now. I own one of these and I've been paying attention from the beginning. I guess I missed all of the hundreds of examples of daily drivers making 400whp. Before 300hp, people are getting thousands and thousands of miles on them. After 300hp, not so much.

I bet there are more FA20's that failed at 180whp than ever made 400whp.

I'm not sure what to tell you. Pretty much all the "stage 1" (Wtf does Stage mean anyways) kits seem to be well capable of exceeding 300whp with a good tune and fat powerband.

Dynosty is local to me, and looking through their blog, they're doing 300whp FRS/BRZs left and right. I saw their stock motor, stock trans, stock rear end car run that 11.1 in person. They've been beating on that car since day 1.

Their dyno reads pretty conservatively, too.

Our old miata put out 194whp on their dyno. It ran a 12.7 @ 107mph this past Sunday.

In the end, dyno numbers are useless when used as numbers. If you want a fast turbo FRS/BRZ, you can have it. Nobody is forcing you to have that, though. Maybe the issues stem from tuning high compression DI engines, something that isn't well-understood yet? The Mazda 2.3DISI was blowing engines left and right when modified initially. Now there's people putting out enormous power. Progress marches on.

I just don't understand the comments about "stout." This is a board that loves BPs for how stout they are. BPs are weak as hell. If the FA wasnt stout, it wouldn't have done 604whp unopened. Even once.

GameboyRMH wrote: Rear-mounted turbos don't do it for me. Turbo lag and the idea of scraping your turbo on a curb both turn me off.

Valid criticisms - if a properly designed rear mount HAD significant lag, or if it were incompetently mounted so that it was going to scrape on anything. In fact neither pertains to the STS units.

Rear-mounted turbos don't do it for me. Turbo lag and the idea of scraping your turbo on a curb both turn me off.

Eh, there are constant/repetitive mentions in the link that NOTHING in that system sits lower than stock. If you bash the muffler in a Frisbee there's a good chance you just also lost your rear bumper cover. It's not like it's a 'normal' concern.

Also, after seeing the dyno sheet in the MotoIQ link, i changed my mind about the supercharger. It looks pretty and well-designed but for 5k+ i'm not sure how i'd feel about 200whp.

I just don't understand the comments about "stout." This is a board that loves BPs for how stout they are. BPs are weak as hell. If the FA wasnt stout, it wouldn't have done 604whp unopened. Even once.

I agree. Seems like the FA20 has exceeded expectations as far as most people are concerned. We went from wishing for a 300hp STi version to having bolt-on 400whp turbo kits for the n/a motor.

GameboyRMH wrote:

Vigo wrote: I think i would err towards the supercharger for a DD for a couple of reasons, but i have to say... The sound advantage of being able to rear-mount a turbo so close to the exhaust tip is just so sexy i can hardly stand it. Did anyone else look at that rear-mount turbo system and then immediately google oilless turbo? I think i just found another thing to spend money on.

Rear-mounted turbos don't do it for me. Turbo lag and the idea of scraping your turbo on a curb both turn me off.

Properly sized, there shouldn't be any more lag than any other turbo solution. Also being annoyed by lag means you're driving it wrong. I grew up on 80's turbo cars, you learned how to drive them, just like anything else.

I wouldn't waste money with forced induction on my FRS... I'd LS v8 it and be WAAAY more reliable with less issues and great NA torque and throttle response. One thing the FA20 has is issues when it comes to FI because you have to manage the high engine bay heat and relatively low engine oil pressure at higher rpms at running temps. Last thing I would do is add boost until you have those issues taken care of. Reliability of my FRS is not something I have faith in it for anything other than non-spirited daily driving... will not run it on track or autocross is anymore and even spirited daily driving can get you throwing codes. It has had some running issues recently (bad ECM) and I still need to bring it in for a known coil pack issue (due to engine bay heat retention) once I can get the engine light to come back on (which I know how to do, but just don't have the time right now to deal with it)... If you drive the car hard on track, your drivers side rear coil pack will be a yearly wear item...among other issues.

Car is not able to handle what it supposedly was designed for... and it's all because of the motor/motor control systems. Looking forward to the lightweight baby "FRS" with a proven I-4 Toyota motor (which has been in service for nearly a decade...) in a few years and am seriously consider getting rid of the FRS if the baby FRS is indeed everything it's promised to be...(~2200lb RWD hatchback/coupe with reliable TOYOTA I4 motor...) Hopefully 2013 FRS prices don't nosedive by then as everyone realized how fragile they can be when it comes to track driving... if you own an FRS your number 1 priority should be how to keep the engine bay temps in check (vent that heat out somehow!) along with getting an oil cooler and being able to monitor your oil pressure and oil temps.

jstein77 wrote: 300 whp sounds just perfect. The Treadstone literature talked about 420 hp with 14 psi of boost, but I would dial that back to 10 psi for street/autocross use. My Sentra is at 7 psi, but the QR25 has more displacement than the FA.

14 PSI on such a high compression engine makes me know that it isn't just using regular premium fuel. Unless direct injection engines allow for this.

On a 350Z which has less compression people wouldn't DARE run more than 7psi.

GameboyRMH wrote:

Vigo wrote: I think i would err towards the supercharger for a DD for a couple of reasons, but i have to say... The sound advantage of being able to rear-mount a turbo so close to the exhaust tip is just so sexy i can hardly stand it. Did anyone else look at that rear-mount turbo system and then immediately google oilless turbo? I think i just found another thing to spend money on.

Rear-mounted turbos don't do it for me. Turbo lag and the idea of scraping your turbo on a curb both turn me off.

WRX was rear mounted, depends on how the setup is. I couldn't imagine hitting a curb with it lol.

The RB20 turbo is mounted in probably the most convenient place possible. It's easier to get to than it is to get to the spark plugs (because you have to take the entire intake off and every host/vacuum line). I would only thing a rear mounted turbo is a hassle because it would be not this easy to get access to.

I wouldn't waste money with forced induction on my FRS... I'd LS v8 it and be WAAAY more reliable

Lol. I guess most people really dont have the context to judge the 'quality' of most engine swaps, but suffice to say that most engine swaps are totally half-ass compared to OEM engine+management, even if they don't LOOK that way. Probably only a fraction of one percent of all the people who work on cars can even make a wiring connection that's as reliable as ALL the oem wiring connections, and that's just one example. It's the 'little stuff' that keeps most swaps from accumulating the 200,300,400k+ miles that an oem setup is capable of.

Reliable forced induction setups are not hard. If you think about it, very few people who turbo their cars build any kind of failsafes into them at all. Your AC compressor with two pressure switches has way more safety fallbacks built into it than your typical turbo setup. Doesn't mean it can't be done. Doesn't even mean it's hard. But noone does it.

I would only thing a rear mounted turbo is a hassle because it would be not this easy to get access to.

I have taken the muffler off a Frisbee and it's certainly not a hard place to get to. The main thing that's bothered me out of building a remote mount setup to this point has been the oiling system. The oilless turbo thing makes it about 300% more attractive to me. At that point the turbo probably would be easier than a lot of blocked-by-plenum spark plugs even if it does require jacking the car up.

Vigo wrote:

I wouldn't waste money with forced induction on my FRS... I'd LS v8 it and be WAAAY more reliable

Lol. I guess most people really dont have the context to judge the 'quality' of most engine swaps, but suffice to say that most engine swaps are totally half-ass compared to OEM engine+management, even if they don't LOOK that way. Probably only a fraction of one percent of all the people who work on cars can even make a wiring connection that's as reliable as ALL the oem wiring connections, and that's just one example. It's the 'little stuff' that keeps most swaps from accumulating the 200,300,400k+ miles that an oem setup is capable of. Reliable forced induction setups are not hard. If you think about it, very few people who turbo their cars build any kind of failsafes into them at all. Your AC compressor with two pressure switches has way more safety fallbacks built into it than your typical turbo setup. Doesn't mean it can't be done. Doesn't even mean it's hard. But noone does it.

For the amount of money to do a turbo system right on an FRS, you might as well just bite the bullet and have a custom V8 swap done, and have instantaneous throttle response, 400+hp and 400 lbft torque while still being NA and having less cooling issues. FRS has too many issues to make a reliable daily driver with forced induction unless you do everything you can to fix the issues... and that means spending the money to do it right. To be honest, I've never been a fan of forced induction in any car that wasn't FI from factory in the first place... and I'm not really a fan of FI factory cars. If it's FI, I really don't want to own it at all. Even with my stock FRS, engine oil temp daily driving can get to 240F without too much coaxing involved... imagine dumping FI into the equation or track use. As an anecdote, the car runs so hot, the aftermarket exhaust I had on melted a hole through my rear bumper... exhaust gets seriously hot on this car. You really need massive cooling capacity increase and engine compartment venting work to make it reliable, otherwise don't even bother.

FRS is a good platform for Forced induction if you do it right...but doing it right means serious $$$$. Turbo plumbing, intercooler system, oil cooling system, transmission cooler (amazing how quickly the transmission fluid degrades on this car...transmission gets HOT being right there by the intake and soaking up the bay heat - you'll be flushing your transmission fluid TWICE for every brake fluid change), upgraded radiator, alcohol injection system, custom cooling/venting solution for engine bay [entire bay is sealed off from airflow...], upgraded rear axles (because stock ones have snapped/sheared at the cages from autocrossing...on stock powered cars) - easily looking at $10k for all that.

Oh and when I mean custom V8 swap I'm specifically referring to something like what Vorshlag is doing...

Vorshlag Project Alpha FR-S LSx

Vracer111 wrote: I wouldn't waste money with forced induction on my FRS... I'd LS v8 it and be WAAAY more reliable with less issues and great NA torque and throttle response. One thing the FA20 has is issues when it comes to FI because you have to manage the high engine bay heat and relatively low engine oil pressure at higher rpms at running temps. Last thing I would do is add boost until you have those issues taken care of. Reliability of my FRS is not something I have faith in it for anything other than non-spirited daily driving... will not run it on track or autocross is anymore and even spirited daily driving can get you throwing codes.

I unfortunately have to echo this...the Subaru engine does not inspire confidence for reasons that I can't even explain. I am coming off 22 years of Mazdas and this might be the first car that I own that does not survive 10 years.

I hope I am wrong, but I sure as E36 M3 am not inspired to treat it like a Miata engine. Besides the fact that I can't drive worth a damn on a slalom course, I quit auto-crossing based on what I am seeing on the forums about this engine; it does not like to live. Parts are expensive and I do not want to pay for a new engine until there are enough sold to get used engines.

Hopefully after a few years the fan-boys on the FRS forum will loosen up their minds enough to start a conversion forum like the Miata guys did.

I am all for increasing cooling when adding heat, or, at the least, adding heat-related failsafes so that you dont actually blow up your motor when things get out of whack.

Our local Des Moines guys have had decent luck with a Vortech kit they sell. I know nothing about forced induction setups but they've had more issues with their trailer than with their car.

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/250-whp-power-package-rage-mode-1193.html

But guys, they can make 604 whp!