volt

confuZion3 wrote: The Volt doesn't carry 1,000 pounds of batteries and probably has a functional trunk. This is also likely the reason that the Volt costs 60% less than the Roadster.

This too puts it aimed at the Prius segment and it's a lot more expensive than that car, which is ignorant's original point.

I'm not trying to flame; I'm pointing out a fundamental flaw in GM's strategy to market this car, a flaw that man I hope they fix.

Everyone can gripe about how they hate marketing, but that's what makes the world go 'round. And in this case I'm seeing GM set themselves up for a huge fall if they continue down this path of a $40K small hybrid, which is what it comes down to.

I was hugely excited about the volt in it's original concept form. You can ask any of my friends, it was getting pretty annoying. Now that the volt became a ridiculously expensive electric malbu, I couldn't care less what they do with it. I wasn't interested in it from a strictly financial standpoint, I was into it because it was a genuinely "neat" concept. At $40k the cheap/fast (grassroots?) part of me takes over and tells me to buy a used Camaro SS and spend the remaining $25k on gas.

Honestly, I thought they'd have trouble selling the volt at it's projected price of $30k with the other hybrids being in the low 20s. No one will care if the competition aren't electric with a generator vehicles, $15k in gas gets a prius pretty damned far.

Jensenman is correct. While there are those who will run to the greatest newest shiniest thing, they are a very small segment. The chevy volt would be competing directly with those who want a prius or insight.

Sure they can drop the price as they go along, but the car needs to deliver a quality product, something the general has problems doing consistently. The average consumer is going think it's neat but walk right bast on their way to the cruze because of the massive price difference.

So, if I understand this Volt thing, they're saying that it runs on batteries, has a little internal combustion motor to charge the batteries, you can plug it into the wall to charge the batteries, the range is 40 miles, it's the size of a Cobolt and they want 40 large for it? Uh-huh. What do the kids say today? "FAIL."

I too was hugely excited by the volt in it's original form. Mostly because I want to drive an sporty car with an electric motor. The torque curve on electric motors are awesome. I had high hopes for the volt since can't afford a Tesla Li-ion batteries are hugely expensive so substituting a small battery pack and a generator seems like a fairly cost efficient way to go.

Too bad Chevy decided to take the one thing that separated it from the prius (The apparent sportiness of the volt) and instead decided to do its best to copy prius.

Unfortunately I think the superiority of the series style hybrid will be lost on the average consumer.

I work with a bunch of investment bankers. I'm the resident car guy on my floor, so coworkers often seek me out for advice when shopping for a new vehicle. The girl two offices down wanted trade in her Lexus SUV for something more environmentally responsible... but she hated the Prius and Civic hybrids, which she said made her feel like she was in highschool again when she was behind the wheel. In the end she decided that the car she was looking for was not on the market yet and bought a new BMW 530i. If the Volt had been available, she would have picked one up in a second. Believe me, for the business suit crowd, the Volt's price tag is irrelevant. They want a cool car which cuts their gasoline dependancy and easies their conscience regarding their personal environmental impact.

the range is 400 miles, 40 without engaging the ic motor.

Here is my math using my 2005 Cobalt as an example:

Purchase price with tax etc: $14000

Average miles per gallon between April 2005 and April 2008: 30.2

End mileage: 57260

Average price per gallon since purchase $3.50/gal

I consumed 1896 gallons of fuel for a total of $6636.00 over the course of 57260 miles, I also spent $480.00 on oil services.

My cost of operation for 3 years and 57260 miles was $21,116 (roughly)

Explain to me how the Dolt will save me money?

IF this car sold for $24,999.00 then it would be WORTH the price.

nderwater wrote: I work with a bunch of investment bankers. I'm the resident car guy on my floor, so coworkers often seek me out for advice when shopping for a new vehicle. The girl two offices down wanted trade in her Lexus SUV for something more environmentally responsible... but she hated the Prius and Civic hybrids, which she said made her feel like she was in highschool again when she was behind the wheel. In the end she decided that the car she was looking for was not on the market yet and bought a new BMW 530i. If the Volt had been available, she would have picked one up in a second. Believe me, for the business suit crowd, the Volt's price tag is irrelevant. They want a cool car which cuts their gasoline dependancy and easies their conscience regarding their personal environmental impact.

i doubt the car will have the fit and finish to attract that buyer.

Dr. Hess wrote: So, if I understand this Volt thing, they're saying that it runs on batteries, has a little internal combustion motor to charge the batteries, you can plug it into the wall to charge the batteries, the range is 40 miles, it's the size of a Cobolt and they want 40 large for it? Uh-huh. What do the kids say today? "FAIL."

I agree with hess.

I think they are trying to drive a true technical wedge into the market, but I believe the average american will view as a parrellel wedge. I think most people believe the volt and prius to be perfect substitutes. While GM seems them as imperfect substitutes, they better do something about that

John, do the math on those oil changes and fuel fills over ten years...then you're looking at $37k. Now, what if fuel is $4.50...after five years you're already approaching $30k cost of operation. Oh yeah, don't forget to include resale if you're thinking long term.

I think it's funny how so many of you are wrapped up in the price tag right now. You guys realize that the car won't even be sold for TWO YEARS right? That's 24 months. A lot of things can happen in a couple of years, don't get so wrapped up in details like the price now. Fuel prices, government incentives, competition, etc. can make major changes in the pricing of the vehicle and how much sense it makes.

Personally, the price tag isn't a big deal to me, but the recently unveiled body changes are quite disappointing. I didn't expect the concept to be the production vehicle, but I also didn't expect it to go from "mean" to "Mom" so dramatically. The concept had me in the mindset that it would be something different, not just in terms of being an OEM plug in hybrid, but also in being "green" and still being cool. The big companies are just scared E36 M3less to do a cool green vehicle, it seems.

Bryce

ignorant wrote:

nderwater wrote: I work with a bunch of investment bankers. I'm the resident car guy on my floor, so coworkers often seek me out for advice when shopping for a new vehicle. The girl two offices down wanted trade in her Lexus SUV for something more environmentally responsible... but she hated the Prius and Civic hybrids, which she said made her feel like she was in highschool again when she was behind the wheel. In the end she decided that the car she was looking for was not on the market yet and bought a new BMW 530i. If the Volt had been available, she would have picked one up in a second. Believe me, for the business suit crowd, the Volt's price tag is irrelevant. They want a cool car which cuts their gasoline dependancy and easies their conscience regarding their personal environmental impact.

i doubt the car will have the fit and finish to attract that buyer.

Why? Have you looked at a recently designed GM in that segment lately? How about the new CTS?

Bryce

Right, I got that the Volt's range was 400 miles total and 40 on batteries.

The Prius is supposed to get around 600 miles on a tank with an electric- only range around 37-40 miles. Not to mention all the Hollywood stars have done their best to make the Prius the vehicle of choice for those who actually think movie stars are smarter than the rest of us. The Volt will have a hard time competing with all of that even without a $15k price premium.

Tesla is claiming 200-244 miles on a charge with no on board IC motor, straight battery power only. So unfortunately the Volt can't compete with that vehicle on an even footing either.

Again, I'd like to see the Volt suceed. The US car industry needs that kind of a positive thing to happen and I'd just hate to see typical GM management shortsightedness combined with the usual UAW demands cripple yet another good idea.

Nashco wrote: John, do the math on those oil changes and fuel fills over ten years...then you're looking at $37k. Now, what if fuel is $4.50...after five years you're already approaching $30k cost of operation. Oh yeah, don't forget to include resale if you're thinking long term. I think it's funny how so many of you are wrapped up in the price tag right now. You guys realize that the car won't even be sold for TWO YEARS right? That's 24 months. A lot of things can happen in a couple of years, don't get so wrapped up in details like the price now. Fuel prices, government incentives, competition, etc. can make major changes in the pricing of the vehicle and how much sense it makes. Personally, the price tag isn't a big deal to me, but the recently unveiled body changes are quite disappointing. I didn't expect the concept to be the production vehicle, but I also didn't expect it to go from "mean" to "Mom" so dramatically. The concept had me in the mindset that it would be something different, not just in terms of being an OEM plug in hybrid, but also in being "green" and still being cool. The big companies are just scared E36 M3less to do a cool green vehicle, it seems. Bryce

When I bought the Cobalt gas was $1.79/ gallon, it was less than three for 75% of ownership but I used $3.50 as a high target.

Most will not keep the Volt 10 years either. I will bite however on the cost of operation for an AVERAGE person (remember I averaged over 22K miles per year) over the AVERAGE term expectancy and AVERAGE fuel cost of $5.00.

MOST people in the US are rolling their cars over a 72 month period and changing them out at roughly 75,000 miles.

I will use $5.00 per gallon as the fuel cost for reference:

Same Cobalt UNIMPROVED MILEAGE RATING 2484 gallons $12417.00 in fuel cost $600.00 in oil services ($40.00 each every 5K miles)

$27017.00 cost of ownership.

Change it to a $20,000 loaded Cobalt... $33017.00 over 6 years.

What will the increase in power useage and infrastructure upgrade cost to keep a Volt in the driveway? Add $8,000 in power and a "charging station" near the driveway/garage? Will a low amperage 110 amp outlet REALLY recharge the car?

John, People don't buy these types of cars to save money. If that is the primary concern the kia rio or the Chevy aveo are the only cars that make any sense at all.

I am am suspicious that a large part of the priuses sales success here in the bay area has to do with the stickers that you could get from the state that would allow you to drive in the commuter lane by your self and bypass most of the traffic. Some people buy these piles to make a statement of be cool or whatever.

The only reason I want a hybrid or electric is to have the fantastic torque curve of the electric motor at my beck and call. Nobody makes a sporty hybrid, and the electric sports cars are too expensive.

It could be done and I think it could be awesome.

I drove a Tahoe Hybrid and it was simply baffling. The thing is an awesome showcase of fuel saving technology. I was very impressed with the seamlessness of the drive train. Except for when I watched the visual display I didn't really have to much of a clue when the electric motor was assisting the V8.

The thing is a bit gaudy with all the huge stickers on the massive SUV telling the world it's a hybrid. People asked my about it at the store and this one guy gave me a thumbs up. I'm used to that sort of thing when I'm in my stang, but not while driving an SUV, the scourge of the Earth.

I figured out how to drive on only the electric motor pretty quickly. I made it all the way down my folks mile long dirt road without using a drop of gas and I heard silence when the V8 shutoff as I slowed down for intersections and even this one corner. There was no loss of power to the steering or accessories when the powertrain transitioned from one mode to another.

GM has come up with an electric AC compressor that I want to steal for my stang. That would save lots of horsepower and my wife wouldn't mind riding with me on those hot summer days so much.

Then to top it all off GM incorporated their displacement on demand cylinder deactivation system in that big powerful V8. So on the interstate I watched the gas mileage jump from 19 MPG to 30!! Crazy stuff.

So yeah I think GM is going to be the winner of the electric car hybrid wars.

If I had the money I might just buy a new Tahoe Hybrid, strip the drivetrain, and stuff it into my old stang. Then I could drive my car all the time like I used to. Granted I'm positive I'd be adding a ton of weight, but I think I could live with that.

I'm down with giving them that loan to help get their hind ends out of the fire. I think it will be money well spent. Course if we keep bailing out companies the gov is going to be in even more of a financial mess.

Chevy Volt's unveiling sparks questions about financing

DETROIT -- Tuesday's unveiling of the Chevrolet Volt electric hybrid car was supposed to be a celebration of new technology, the birth of a new class of automobile. Instead, the crowd at General Motors Corp.'s Renaissance Center was buzzing over who was going to pay for it: GM or American taxpayers?

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-volt17-2008sep17,0,3428401.story

Did you hear about Chrysler announcing their own lot of hybrids and such? http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/23/officially-official-chryslers-late-2010-electric-vehicle-line/

You don't want to play the "cost of ownership" game with somebody who owns a $2450 P71...

The whole point of the Volt isn't gas savings, it's total energy savings. Here in Washington/Oregon where the majority of our power is clean hydro or wind turbine "plugging in" an electric car doesn't harm the trees and crap. Add in the whole 40 miles with no recharge thing and it really starts to look cool. My better half only goes ~8 miles to work and the same back, and sometimes she has meetings or errands, but her average daily trip is well under 40 miles. She could go all year without buying a single drop of gas!

So yeah, in 2010 when she finishes her masters and the Grand Prix has 125K miles on it, we will be in the market for a Volt. If we can afford it I can definitely see it going in the garage... you know, next to the oil-burning, rotary-powered, auto-crossing RX-7...

Why not just go buy the original Insight? It gets better gas mileage then any of the current hybrids and they only cost between $10K to $15K on ebay. Weights nothing and has a manual. And I heard it was kinda fun to drive.

jikelley mentioned the electric A/C compressor: Chrysler is releasing a hybrid Aspen and I had to do a preliminary course on it. The electric A/C compressor runs on 288 volts. No, that's not a fatfinger.

The original insight remains my favorite hybrid. They weigh about 1800 lbs. I have heard dark rumors of people autoXing them.

ignorant wrote:

nderwater wrote: I work with a bunch of investment bankers. I'm the resident car guy on my floor, so coworkers often seek me out for advice when shopping for a new vehicle. The girl two offices down wanted trade in her Lexus SUV for something more environmentally responsible... but she hated the Prius and Civic hybrids, which she said made her feel like she was in highschool again when she was behind the wheel. In the end she decided that the car she was looking for was not on the market yet and bought a new BMW 530i. If the Volt had been available, she would have picked one up in a second. Believe me, for the business suit crowd, the Volt's price tag is irrelevant. They want a cool car which cuts their gasoline dependancy and easies their conscience regarding their personal environmental impact.

i doubt the car will have the fit and finish to attract that buyer.

I agree with ignorant.

I'm sure they will want a "hybrid" badge on the back, but the other side will say "Lexus", "BMW", or Mercedes".

I think Chevy is keeping the price sky high for a reason, it will limit the number sold and the crowd it is sold to. This is totally new territory for GM and they want to dip their toe in first. If warranty issues come up (and they will come up) they don't have to deal with hundreds of thousands of cars and the bad PR. They will get sold to people who reeeealy want them and can afford them. GM will take extra special care of them whenever a problem with the cars arises to really put on a good show. They can't afford to do that if there are too many sold the first couple years out. Basically people will pay to be the beta testers. GM gets the added benefit of the car being a bit rare on the road, it will stand out and people will draw a crowd at the coffee shop parking lot that's cheap advertising. The Dodge EV (cough cough Lotus Europa) is awesome, I think the minivan stands a way better chance of getting to market but I love the way they think on the EV, "hey Lotus knows light awesome cars, we just need a shell to stuff a battery and motor in, Do it!"

Nashco wrote:

ignorant wrote:

nderwater wrote: I work with a bunch of investment bankers. I'm the resident car guy on my floor, so coworkers often seek me out for advice when shopping for a new vehicle. The girl two offices down wanted trade in her Lexus SUV for something more environmentally responsible... but she hated the Prius and Civic hybrids, which she said made her feel like she was in highschool again when she was behind the wheel. In the end she decided that the car she was looking for was not on the market yet and bought a new BMW 530i. If the Volt had been available, she would have picked one up in a second. Believe me, for the business suit crowd, the Volt's price tag is irrelevant. They want a cool car which cuts their gasoline dependancy and easies their conscience regarding their personal environmental impact.

i doubt the car will have the fit and finish to attract that buyer.

Why? Have you looked at a recently designed GM in that segment lately? How about the new CTS? Bryce

friend has a cts v. interior fit and finish is still gm.

I have a feeling that this will end up being some what of a "halo" car for gm and i think they have priced it as one. Hate all you want but this is the first true electric car for mass consumption. The way i understand it, it works like a locomotive in that the motor does not power the drive train, it only charges the batteries. Go have to remember that this car is the first of its kind and no one really expects it to be perfect. When the automobiles first came out they were horrible machines but they have improved over time and the same think will happen with this kind of car.

Don't dump on the general just because its the first to try this.

ignorant wrote:

Nashco wrote:

ignorant wrote:

nderwater wrote: I work with a bunch of investment bankers. I'm the resident car guy on my floor, so coworkers often seek me out for advice when shopping for a new vehicle. The girl two offices down wanted trade in her Lexus SUV for something more environmentally responsible... but she hated the Prius and Civic hybrids, which she said made her feel like she was in highschool again when she was behind the wheel. In the end she decided that the car she was looking for was not on the market yet and bought a new BMW 530i. If the Volt had been available, she would have picked one up in a second. Believe me, for the business suit crowd, the Volt's price tag is irrelevant. They want a cool car which cuts their gasoline dependancy and easies their conscience regarding their personal environmental impact.

i doubt the car will have the fit and finish to attract that buyer.

Why? Have you looked at a recently designed GM in that segment lately? How about the new CTS? Bryce

friend has a cts v. interior fit and finish is still gm.

You do know there's a newer version of the CTS out for model year 2008, right? That's why I said the "new" CTS. I'm going out on a limb and guessing your friend doesn't have a "new" (2009) CTS-V, and instead he has a first generation '04-07.

Bryce