VW may not be Exxon but...

F-350SD wrote: A buy back for how much? Fair market value, maybe. Original price of your car? Not gonna happen. You drove it for years and got the mileage you were expecting, how were you harmed?

If they do it anything like other buybacks, it's advantageous over fair market value to encourage it.

The rusty frame Toyota Tacoma buyback for example was 150% of KBB. So it takes into account years/mileage/condition, but still offers an incentive to take the money and run.

xflowgolf wrote:

F-350SD wrote: A buy back for how much? Fair market value, maybe. Original price of your car? Not gonna happen. You drove it for years and got the mileage you were expecting, how were you harmed?

If they do it anything like other buybacks, it's advantageous over fair market value to encourage it. The rusty frame Toyota Tacoma buyback for example was 150% of KBB. So it takes into account years/mileage/condition, but still offers an incentive to take the money and run.

I would be happy with fair market value, even more so with 150% of it.

Storz wrote:

xflowgolf wrote: *snip I own an '11 TDI. I am dissapointed in VW. I'm secretly hoping for a buyback.

Same here.

+1

EPA mileage testing is a joke. C&D did a great article a while back that outlined the issues with the EPA estimates on hybrids: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/why-is-the-epa-so-bad-at-estimating-hybrid-fuel-economy-feature

GameboyRMH wrote:

Storz wrote: I bought the car to be an economical daily driver with the mindset that burning less fuel on my daily slog back and forth to work is a good thing for both the planet and my wallet. So yeah, I feel a little cheated. I also don't want a "fix" that kills the performance or fuel economy because that's NOT the car I bought, nor is adding a Urea system the car I bought.

To be fair, the car you bought also turned out not to be the car you bought, so now you have to decide which car you actually want: The diesel-sipper that mega-pollutes, a low-maintenance subpar diesel, or a modern diesel with urea injection. The amazing diesel sipper with low pollution was a fiction so that's not an option. I do hope you get the option of a buyback though.

I simply do not understand the urea disdain.

Looking at NAPA's website, a gallon of DEF is under eleven bucks. If you need to add two a year because you drive a lot (being pessimistic here), that's $22/year.

All VW Diesels with particulate traps require oil that meets 507.00. The only oil NAPA carries that meets that spec is $62 for five liters. Even if you're a typical new European car owner where you do the bare minimum because you are going to throw the car away when it is five years old, that's still two oil changes per year. You can get a VERY high spec gasoline engine oil for half that...

So I don't see the disconnect. An extra $60+ per year for fancy oil is Good, an extra $20 for the ability to have clean emissions and good fuel economy (instead of one or the other) is Bad?

How many people who hate DEF will also spend $10/gallon for fancy windshield washer fluid?

What happens if you don't fill the DEF tank? What happens if you don't use the specified oil in the VW?

I am kind of thinking of rotary cares here which have the requirement to sometimes add oil and how that is pretty foreign to modern drivers. I can easily see these requirements ignored or forgotten (of course, the more clueless are less likely to change their own oil)

...and now Porsche's CEO steps in.

aircooled wrote: What happens if you don't fill the DEF tank?

I can't speak for what would happen in the cars being investigated, but what should happen if the tank runs low, or the urea quality is too low to be effective, is a derate condition. Basically power is cut, and it goes into a "limp mode".

Knurled is totally on point above about the cost of DEF/AdBlue/urea. It's available any place diesel fuel can be purchased now and is super inexpensive. The people that would complain about the cost of pennies per day don't have much of an argument. In fact, they probably spend a few dollars per day on silly coffee drinks

Storz wrote:

xflowgolf wrote:

F-350SD wrote: A buy back for how much? Fair market value, maybe. Original price of your car? Not gonna happen. You drove it for years and got the mileage you were expecting, how were you harmed?

If they do it anything like other buybacks, it's advantageous over fair market value to encourage it. The rusty frame Toyota Tacoma buyback for example was 150% of KBB. So it takes into account years/mileage/condition, but still offers an incentive to take the money and run.

I would be happy with fair market value, even more so with 150% of it.

Prior to this at least, wasn't 'fair market value' on TDI's already far more than KBB?

Maybe Porsche orchestrated this whole thing to finally finish what they tried to with the takeover bid.

In reply to Rusted_Busted_Spit: My thoughts exactly, doesn't seem like they get along with audi either, perhaps they are next.

aircooled wrote: What happens if you don't use the specified oil in the VW?

PD engines (pre common rail, post injection pump) engines will eat the camlobes in a remarkably short period of time. I've heard in as little as 5,000km. With the correct oil they eat the camlobes in a still unacceptable period of time relative to other cars but still in the 100-200k mile range.

If you use a non-507 oil in a VW with the DPF, it will fill more quickly. When it is full of soot, the engine regens - runs the combustion late/hot so the oxidation catalyst gets hot, sending hot exhaust into the DPF to burn the soot out. Well, sort of. When it burns the soot, some ash is left over. When the DPF is full of ash, you replace it.

So, not using the 507.00 on engines that require it means more regen (worse economy) and also shorter life for critical emissions components.

Christ. VW CEO gets $32M pension and that is before severance is detailed (ref VW/Porsche eco link above). I'm picking up a Ram 1500 diesel in a few weeks and my tinfoil hat is buzzing in the closet.

Teh E36 M3 wrote: Christ. VW CEO gets $32M pension and that is before severance is detailed (ref VW/Porsche eco link above). I'm picking up a Ram 1500 diesel in a few weeks and my tinfoil hat is buzzing in the closet.

Why tinfoil?

Im curious how many other manufacturers diesels will suddenly become "unavailable" for one reason or another.

A couple of months ago my Dad got a 2012 Jetta TDi wagon. It is a nice car and if prices take a dive I think I will get one for myself.

Storz wrote:

Teh E36 M3 wrote: Christ. VW CEO gets $32M pension and that is before severance is detailed (ref VW/Porsche eco link above). I'm picking up a Ram 1500 diesel in a few weeks and my tinfoil hat is buzzing in the closet.

Why tinfoil?

Tinfoil because- are all manufacturers of diesel engines cheating? Am I buying a truck that is going to be subject to a whole mess of recalls etc before I even pick it up?

This has affected diesel sales in all other makes.

I have often wondered. People buy diesel for better mileage and the forget the diesel penalty when buying. How long does it take to recoup the roughly 3k difference. In the case of the Jetta. Trucks are even more. An then you have the special fluids.

and add in the price difference in fuel … here it's usually upwards to a buck more than 93 …sometimes much closer to 87

Though there have been a number of times recently where I've seen prices flipped- where Regular Unleaded is 20c more expensive than Diesel...

iceracer wrote: This has affected diesel sales in all other makes. I have often wondered. People buy diesel for better mileage and the forget the diesel penalty when buying. How long does it take to recoup the roughly 3k difference. In the case of the Jetta. Trucks are even more. An then you have the special fluids.

You don't need to recoup the difference...it's there and then some on resale. Well....at least it used to be.

Resale and mileage (per mile and length of engine life) were the attractions to Diesel.

This VW scenario might negate both of these?

ebonyandivory wrote: Resale and mileage (per mile and length of engine life) were the attractions to Diesel. This VW scenario might negate both of these?

Probably.
Since this (from what I have read) is a software issue that turns off some emissions stuff, VW could fairly easily come up with a reflash that turns it on all the time.

But that could cost you 10mpg and 10hp(theoretical numbers).

"So What" you say, "I just won't get mine reflashed!"

Then you get a letter from VW that says "Bring it in or your warranty is void(already been done by one manufacturer). Or the EPA puts the pressure on and the state says "You must present evidence that the vehicle has been reflashed to get your tags renewed" (CA and the "green states" would jump on this).

"Well I want VW to buy the vehicle back!" Sure they will, at KBB (which has hit rock bottom due to this issue) or at a pro-rated for mileage number (which won't give you enough money to buy a replacement).

I can see this turning into a bigger soap opera than the E36 M3 going on in F1 right now.

And you already have one Tuner who has advertised that "If you bought a tune from us, we will give you a new tune for free after this settles out."

The equal $ point gets done faster in CA when regular and diesel are the same, or diesel is significantly less.