VW may not be Exxon but...

Hey, I'm not defending VW, I mean, they got caught and should get a good spanking unless they can buy their way out of it. Myself, I am having just as good a Schadenfreude moment at their expense as the next guy.

I just cant really get that righteously indignant over something that is probably less toxic than cow flatulence on a global scale, when I see so much other social decay that is just accepted as "The way it works". And by the way, China does export all that smog to the rest of the world. You thought it just hung around? We just turn a blind eye cause their "Cheating" be it on smog levels or patents or cyber-crime is A-OK!

I bet there are going to be profiteers out there suing VW claiming emotional/guilt damages over their emissions. Now see...THAT is the kind of scam we like in North America!!! In my mind its gone from being a crime to being entertainment.

NOHOME wrote: And by the way, China does export all that smog to the rest of the world. You thought it just hung around? We just turn a blind eye cause their "Cheating" be it on smog levels or patents or cyber-crime is A-OK!

Flip side: It wouldn't be correct to pressure them to clean up THEIR act if we're not first serious about it at home.

In reply to NOHOME: The point is they lied and cheated their customers

NOHOME wrote: ...I just cant really get that righteously indignant over something that is probably less toxic than cow flatulence on a global scale, when I see so much other social decay that is just accepted as "The way it works"...

The damage is not the big deal, it's the attitude and behavior toward the regulations and their customers (since it was effectively false adverting).

It's probably better to look at it less like "They have caused horrible environmental damage" (which they really haven't) and more like "They were trusted to test themselves and clearly were dishonest in their testing defrauding not only the regulators but their customers".

In reply to NOHOME:

Ok, so you don't think that the gas emissions increase is a problem. I disagree (NOx is pretty nasty to your lungs), but I do want to point out that the air isn't the only ones harmed here.

Again, if one of your competitors broke a law, and sold a product at a significant profit because of that cheating, cutting into your profits- would you be ok with that?

It's not as if it was an accident they did this- it was intentional (as they admit it).

From a head to head standpoint- the hybrid cars got a disadvantage as well as others selling diesels. At one point VW claimed to be the largest car maker in the world- if that was largely because they cheated- all OEM's lost sales due to that cheating.

In reply to alfadriver:

I wonder how many people who think it's no big deal, would also think it's no big deal if, say, a truck's engine wasrated by the manufacturer at 750ft-lb but independent testing showed that it never made more than 500ft-lb, and it turned out that the engine WOULD make 750ft-lb only under the exact conditions for the testing rig (hood up, traction control disabled, A/C off, front wheels not turning, etc). And the other manufacturers sweated their asses off to get even 650ft-lb and they needed much more expensive engine internals and heavier duty drivetrain components to meet durability specs and took the fuel economy hit for the additional mass/friction and all of the other snowball effects that it all entails, including increased price/reduced profit margin/reduced quality in other areas to stay competitive.

How many of the people cheering VW for their innovative methods would suddenly be calling for heads on pikes?

alfadriver wrote: In reply to NOHOME: Ok, so you don't think that the gas emissions increase is a problem. I disagree (NOx is pretty nasty to your lungs), but I do want to point out that the air isn't the only ones harmed here. Again, if one of your competitors broke a law, and sold a product at a significant profit because of that cheating, cutting into your profits- would you be ok with that? It's not as if it was an accident they did this- it was intentional (as they admit it). From a head to head standpoint- the hybrid cars got a disadvantage as well as others selling diesels. At one point VW claimed to be the largest car maker in the world- if that was largely because they cheated- all OEM's lost sales due to that cheating.

Agree.

Knurled wrote: In reply to alfadriver: I wonder how many people who think it's no big deal, would also think it's no big deal if, say, a truck's engine wasrated by the manufacturer at 750ft-lb but independent testing showed that it never made more than 500ft-lb, and it turned out that the engine WOULD make 750ft-lb only under the exact conditions for the testing rig (hood up, traction control disabled, A/C off, front wheels not turning, etc). And the other manufacturers sweated their asses off to get even 650ft-lb and they needed much more expensive engine internals and heavier duty drivetrain components to meet durability specs and took the fuel economy hit for the additional mass/friction and all of the other snowball effects that it all entails, including increased price/reduced profit margin/reduced quality in other areas to stay competitive. How many of the people cheering VW for their innovative methods would suddenly be calling for heads on pikes?

Bingo

VW should be forced to plant a forest now. I'll be planting a few trees to help make up for my TDI in the future.

Problem is, now I can't sell it because the resale has plummeted below the loan I have on it. Also, with the mod-taince I've been doing, I plan on keeping it a while now. It's a great car with a very unethical company behind it.

In reply to CGLockRacer:

My neighbor works for Mercedes NA and we were talking about this over the weekend. He said that he has talked to more than one dealer that has had people walk in and demand that their TDI be bought back. The dealer buys it back for what is owed and then they in turn sell it back to VW. Maybe something to look into.

Thought your VW was OK because it had a gas engine? Wrong!

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/04/business/vw-discloses-new-emissions-problem-involving-carbon-dioxide.html

Some of their gas engines emit more CO2 and get less MPG than advertised, and they didn't even need to write any software to pull it off - all it took was to lie about it hope nobody noticed. Which worked for a while.

In reply to GameboyRMH:

IMHO, that is VW trying to divert some attention from them, and put it on the entire industry in Europe. As I've pointed out before, the NEDC cycle, and how it's encouraged to run results in data that is very disconnected from the real world. And that's for all gasses produced- HC, NOx, CO, CO2, etc. It IS a big deal, but the "part 2" of VW's scandal. Part 1 being that they put in hardware to intentionally cheat.

The rules in the EU are changing, but I expect this will accelerate it, some.

CGLockRacer wrote: VW should be forced to plant a forest now. I'll be planting a few trees to help make up for my TDI in the future. Problem is, now I can't sell it because the resale has plummeted below the loan I have on it. Also, with the mod-taince I've been doing, I plan on keeping it a while now. It's a great car with a very unethical company behind it.

That's my biggest beef, now my car which had a good resale value has basically none. My equity in the vehicle is vapor now and that sucks as an average middle class dude.

Storz wrote:

CGLockRacer wrote: VW should be forced to plant a forest now. I'll be planting a few trees to help make up for my TDI in the future. Problem is, now I can't sell it because the resale has plummeted below the loan I have on it. Also, with the mod-taince I've been doing, I plan on keeping it a while now. It's a great car with a very unethical company behind it.

That's my biggest beef, now my car which had a good resale value has basically none. My equity in the vehicle is vapor now and that sucks as an average middle class dude.

I know there is a perceived loss of resale value, but are TDI values actually dropping? Doesn't seem like TDI prices have really dropped according to my local CL

STM317 wrote:

Storz wrote:

CGLockRacer wrote: VW should be forced to plant a forest now. I'll be planting a few trees to help make up for my TDI in the future. Problem is, now I can't sell it because the resale has plummeted below the loan I have on it. Also, with the mod-taince I've been doing, I plan on keeping it a while now. It's a great car with a very unethical company behind it.

That's my biggest beef, now my car which had a good resale value has basically none. My equity in the vehicle is vapor now and that sucks as an average middle class dude.

I know there is a perceived loss of resale value, but are TDI values actually dropping? Doesn't seem like TDI prices have really dropped according to my local CL

I attempted to buy a BMW 2 weekends ago and asked about trading in my 2011 Jetta TDI. They told me no... They didn't even want to bother with it. Eventually they offered me a couple grand. Carmax offered $6K for it. NADA and KBB say the trade in value should be around $12K.

In reply to Devilsolsi:

Perhaps all of the people selling theirs on my local CL for 10-15k are just trying to get what they owe out of them and move on then. To me, dealer trade in value does not necessarily equal resale value. I'm sure a dealer wouldn't want to mess with potentially "damaged goods", but the private sale market seems to be strong as ever around me. Maybe you'd have better luck going that route.

iceracer wrote: In reply to NOHOME: The point is they lied and cheated their customers

And my point is that so does EVERYONE else in society. It is a given. If you break the speed-limit on the way to work, you have it inside you to do what VW did. It's just a bigger fine.

Not saying that I like, approve or even condone breaking the rules, just that I start from the premise that with most situations there will be a razor blade in the candy, and proceed accordingly. I have very low expectations, hence I am seldom truly disappointed by human nature.

NOHOME wrote:

iceracer wrote: In reply to NOHOME: The point is they lied and cheated their customers

And my point is that so does EVERYONE else in society. It is a given. If you break the speed-limit on the way to work, you have it inside you to do what VW did. It's just a bigger fine.

I break the speed limit probably every time I drive and yet I don't lie to and cheat customers. What now?

Really the scale of the wrong is worth considering.

GameboyRMH wrote:

NOHOME wrote:

iceracer wrote: In reply to NOHOME: The point is they lied and cheated their customers

And my point is that so does EVERYONE else in society. It is a given. If you break the speed-limit on the way to work, you have it inside you to do what VW did. It's just a bigger fine.

I break the speed limit probably every time I drive and yet I don't lie to and cheat customers. What now? Really the scale of the wrong is worth considering.

NOPE that is my point. Just the size of the penalty. And you don't have to lie and cheat your customers, that's the marketing department's job.

Here's the joke: Man to woman: Would you sleep with me for one million dollars? Woman: Sure. Man: How about for ten dollars? Woman: What do you think I am? Man: We've already established what you are. All we're doing is bargaining about price.

Good, so we can all agree that wrong is wrong, and VW was very wrong. I think we also agree that the scale of the wrong, determined by the number of people affected (in this case somewhere between 11 million VW owners and every living thing on the planet), should play a role in the scale of the punishment.

Now it looks like the Cayenne Diesel, Q7 and Touraeg are being yanked..

And now most of their newer gas models are getting recalled for breaking camshafts!

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/04/vw-recalls-models-camshaft-failure/

In reply to NOHOME: Maybe to you everyone is cheating and breaking the law, but with respect to this particular law, my impression is that very few are cheating and breaking the law. And yes, everyone does to competitive analysis on other cars. Just very little on the road (up until now).

Maybe that impression is why it's so much more shocking to me.

Just like when one gets caught speeding, there are fines. Previously laid out in the law. And if you admit to speeding, you get to pay that fine. VW admitted they cheated. They get to pay the fine.

The funny thing is, the speed limits are generally set artificially low because traffic fines are an expected source of revenue. In a sense, if you drive the speed limit, then you are cheating on taxes, although (again, generally) the only people who do actually follow the speed limit have something to hide, so there is no shortage of revenue so everything is okay. The fines are generally low and there are generally no criminal repercussions until you get downright flagrant.

This is different. This is expected standards that everyone has to meet in order to be able to sell here. Defying those standards isn't a no-victims deal. In effect, as alfadriver has pointed out, VW's policies stole from their customers, their competitors, and indirectly and directly from the government.

Say did you know that speeding on surface streets here has only a $180 fine but littering is a $1000 fine minimum? One affects nobody and the other is a societal blight.

Part of me kinda hopes that the EPA would just say, fark it, all affected VWs get confiscated and crushed, talk to VW about getting your money back. I know that this would absolutely never happen (they goodwill-grandfathered the Motorex Skylines that had been improperly imported, after all) but a drastic measure like that would at least get people to be more serious about compliance.

Of course, another, darker, more cynical part of me recognizes that, if such a thing were to occur, it would be Obama's takin yer cars or some other stupid crap. Although to be honest, looking at what the fines could be, it would be cheaper for VW to just do a full MSRP buyback on the affected vehicles and turn them into metallic granola. And then it would turn into "The 70mpg Cars The Government Doesn't Want You To Own!!"

(Learn what One Weird Trick VW used to make their cars more fuel-efficient!)

(The government HATES VW for their One Weird Trick for using less oil!)

(VW made highly fuel efficient cars and you won't BELIEVE what happens next!)

Aw crap. Maybe the whole thing is a publicity stunt engineered by listicle generators.