What are you really buying when you buy a brand new car?

Tom1200 said:

In reply to bobzilla :

Our beaters definitely have cracked dashes and rotting door seals but the shells do last foreved.

There is an up turned beetle in a sand wash I ride.......it moves about 100ft a decade. It still looks the same as it did when I rode past it in 1982.

I know I was shocked when I started working in my 78 C10 I brought back from Arizona. The cab was intact with factory floors which is somethjng we hadn't seen on a 78 since about 84. But bolts came loose! You could actually do things to a 38 year old truck without cutting everything out. You just can't do that up here. 

I've never purchased a new car, but will probably do so for my next vehicle. There's a few things that make it appealing, some of which has already been discussed. 
1.) known history. If I buy a car new, I know what's normal and what needs to be addressed when I hear a clunk or a thunk or squeak. 
2.) like many, I have very specific tastes and being able to option it from the factory exactly how I want. 
3.) It makes more sense financially for me-- it's easier to budget.  I have a stable, well paying job and can easily make the monthly payment for the kinds of cars that I'm interested in. Loans are also usually cheaper for new cars than used ones. I also don't feel great about financing something that may still need a couple thousand worth of work here and there to address typical used car problems. 
4.) See 1 and 3. Because of my work schedule, I don't have the time anymore to diagnose and work on something that I need to get to work. Similarly, in my free time, I'd rather spend it with my dog and my partner, brewing beer with friends, going to museums, movies, and out to dinner. 

Keep in mind that this mindset applies mostly to DDs or semi-DDs. Project cars are a different story  and become an enjoyable hobby which is really what got me into the enthusiast scene in the first place. 
 

So to answer the OP's original question I'm buying freedom, choice, and self determination. 
 

In reply to Steve :

I seem to have enough money for what I need. What I don't have is an endless number of hours in my life; so I value those above money.  The value proposition for a new car is that I get more of those priceless non-replaceable hours to do what I want to do.

Searching for, vetting and maintaining second-hand transportation cars at the cost of my limited hours of life seems like a waste of time doing things that I do not enjoy.

Oddly enough one thing I  do enjoy doing with my valued free time is working on project cars. But I do not equate project cars with transportation. Having a newish car in the driveway gives me more of those life-hours to waste on project cars.

NOHOME said:

In reply to Steve :

I seem to have enough money for what I need. What I don't have is an endless number of hours in my life; so I value those above money.  The value proposition for a new car is that I get more of those priceless non-replaceable hours to do what I want to do.

Searching for, vetting and maintaining second-hand transportation cars at the cost of my limited hours of life seems like a waste of time doing things that I do not enjoy.

Oddly enough one thing I  do enjoy doing with my valued free time is working on project cars. But I do not equate project cars with transportation. Having a newish car in the driveway gives me more of those life-hours to waste on project cars.

YES!

Working on a project car for fun is very different than working on the daily driver. As time got on I started having cars I look at as appliances and cars that I looked at as toys. I like playing with the toys, I dont really like working on appliances. I'll do some maintenance to save money, and heck, many times its faster and more convenient to just DIY, but I like the notion of not staring down the next problem on my 185k mile Expedition. Also, if something goes sideways and I get stuck needing more parts or more time than expected, I hate the pressure. 

Plus, remote start, heated seats, and heated steering wheel sounds very nice to the aches I have been accumulating. 

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to intentionally piss anyone off on here. 

Truthfully, there is a heavy does of jealousy on my side around families that are in the position to carry the open financial liability of a brand new car while still maintaining a hobby car. I can't make the math work. If I draw out the financing term for 6 years, it makes a big difference, but even then the monthly financial draw is no where near what I have seen in this thread. Can I make the assumption that you folks are making down payments in the neighborhood of used car prices? Or is there something I am missing entirely? 

Right now, my Passat, which after some extensive work, is entirely reliable, and was very specifically incredibly cheap. If I get anywhere in the neighborhood of my asking price, I will have gained money on the car or will come very close to being net zero for transportation costs (besides gas). It was a pain in the ass to get to this point, but I don't see another option. 

For someone who has bought new or certified used, what are some real numbers for your repayment? I'm not trying to bait anyone here, I'm genuinely curious as I would love to put my wife into something newer, safer, etc., and I see no path that nets me a payment per month that is even close to achievable based on moderately used or new vehicle prices out there. 

In reply to Steve :

It didn't come overnight. We have been working our asses off for the last 22 years together as a team to get to the point where we are. We saved, cut costs, scrimped and are lucky to live in a state with low CoL. Only paid for what we could pay off each month, drove beater cars for most of the time. The nicest car before these two was a 2 year old Kia Forte SX sedan we bought used for under half price.

So yeah, we've been there. But I'm learning Im not in my 20's anymore. I'm tired and if I can let someone else do it I'm good. We won't be buying a new car for at least 10 years now. 

Steve said:

For someone who has bought new or certified used, what are some real numbers for your repayment? I'm not trying to bait anyone here, I'm genuinely curious as I would love to put my wife into something newer, safer, etc., and I see no path that nets me a payment per month that is even close to achievable based on moderately used or new vehicle prices out there. 

I mean, what are you shopping for?

The median new car price is $50K according to google, but MSRP on a normal Honda Civic (not Si, not type R) is in the mid/high 20s.  Let's say an EX for $30K out the door -- with $5K down and a $25K loan, at the current average new car interest rate of 6% that's $483/month for a 5 year loan.

It's probably less than that if you lease it because Hondas usually have good resale value so I expect the residuals are high.  Leasing really only makes financial sense in very specific circumstances, though.

In reply to Steve :

Saved to buy first new cars with cash many years ago. Bought cheap and reliable transportation cause all it had to do was get us from point A to point B and back with minimal fuel and insurance cost. Then I had ten years to make payments to myself so that I could do it again. Does not hake a huge car payment  to yourself when you have ten years. Avoid buying luxury and it gets easier each time.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Steve said:

For someone who has bought new or certified used, what are some real numbers for your repayment? I'm not trying to bait anyone here, I'm genuinely curious as I would love to put my wife into something newer, safer, etc., and I see no path that nets me a payment per month that is even close to achievable based on moderately used or new vehicle prices out there. 

I mean, what are you shopping for?

The median new car price is $50K according to google, but MSRP on a normal Honda Civic (not Si, not type R) is in the mid/high 20s.  Let's say an EX for $30K out the door -- with $5K down and a $25K loan, at the current average new car interest rate of 6% that's $483/month for a 5 year loan.

It's probably less than that if you lease it because Hondas usually have good resale value so I expect the residuals are high.  Leasing really only makes financial sense in very specific circumstances, though.

 

Good god base civics are $30k? For what? Top level forte gt (si equivalent) is $28k out the door. 

I'm getting older and agree with some of the sentiments expressed here about not wanting to work on daily drivers.  However I still mostly drive old beaters; my daily is a Prius I got for free (the Freeus!) which currently has 310k miles.

I pick super reliable cars, fuel efficient cars for daily drivers, always have multiple vehicles in case something breaks, and if there's a repair I don't want to do, I off them.  

I feel like it's the best of both worlds.  I don't spend much time doing maintenance, I don't worry if they get dinged, and they're cheap. 

This does require me to be tolerant of imperfections... the Freeus, for example, has no working stereo, a crease in one quarter panel, and a relatively ugly interior.  

bobzilla said:

Good god base civics are $30k? For what? Top level forte gt (si equivalent) is $28k out the door. 

Base Civic MSRP is $23,750, the EX is the one with nice features but base powertrain and has an MSRP of $28K.  Si starts around $29K.  Out-the-door price is going to vary depending on what (if any) discount you get off MSRP and sales tax rate in your state.  $30K seemed like a conservative (high) assumption and also a nice round number.

In reply to Steve :

I was lucky, in that I was born to a middle class family, got through college with minimal debt, and manged to find a reasonable paying job (not in my degree field, though, which was going through a bit of a dip when I graduated).  I bought my first new car 4 years out of college, while living in apartments where I couldn't work on my own car, and having gotten screwed over multiple times by repair shops.  Gas was getting expensive, and my car at the time was hitting a point where it seemed like something was always going wrong.  Bought a new Saturn SL2 for about 18K in 2001, I want to say the payments after my trade in where around $250 (the equivalent of $430 in 2023) a month for 5 years.  Having that car meant I had a reliable ride to work, and as mentioned by someone else, a predictable set of expenses.

Since then, I've bounced between new and used cars, but I have never bought one that is as expensive as the average new car sold in the US at the time.  Like codrus mentioned, a new car doesn't have to be that expensive.  If you just need basic transportation, you could probably still get a reasonable Kia/Hyundai for around 20K today.  If you want nicer for the same price, then it pretty much means hitting the used market.  The only luxury cars I've owned have been used.

If I lived in in the PNW, I'd be more willing to buy used.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

bobzilla said:

Good god base civics are $30k? For what? Top level forte gt (si equivalent) is $28k out the door. 

Base Civic MSRP is $23,750, the EX is the one with nice features but base powertrain and has an MSRP of $28K.  Si starts around $29K.  Out-the-door price is going to vary depending on what (if any) discount you get off MSRP and sales tax rate in your state.  $30K seemed like a conservative (high) assumption and also a nice round number.

Just caught off guard on that. The GT's were all in the 26k range and are completely loaded (only option you can't get is remote start and heated steering wheel). But I forget you have to pay the Honda tax. 

In reply to Steve :

To answer one of your questions, the last vehicle I bought, the Gladiator, I had quite a bit of a down payment (~40-50%).  This was a combination of the trade in value of my car and additional cash on top, with the majority coming from the trade in.

I have bought one new car myself and another with my ex-.

The former was a 2003 Jetta TDI 5 spd wagon. It was my main daily for 10 years and 329K miles. I bought it because used TDI wagons (AT Jettas or B4 Passats) were very rare back then and commanded high resale values with fairly high miles. Plus, maintenance on a TDI is so important, I really wanted to know what had been done to it from day-one.  I stopped driving it in 2013 to do some age/miles related maintenance and then slowly realized the car didn't fit my needs anymore.  So it sat for a long time before I finally sold it on to a young guy who put it back together and I understand is still driving it.

The second was a 2007 MINI convertible I bought with my ex. She wanted a convertible.  The only way she could get it was to buy it with me.  Then in 2012 she needed to do house work and we sold it to remove the financial drain (I was making the payments, but she had it on her insurance).  I really miss that car as we ordered it with some fairly specific options and then did a lot of subtle modifications to it literally the moment we got it home.  It was one of the few times my ex- and I both had the same vision of what the car should be.   Again, used wasn't really an option for what we wanted. 

Otherwise, I also tend to buy used. Will I ever buy another new car?  Right now, I honestly don't know.  If I were in a money-no-object position, certainly - I'd go to a Ford dealer and place an order for a Transit 350HD extended high-roof, EB AWD.  If some company decides to build an EV minivan that fits my needs, that could also be a possible new car.  But for now, I'm happy with my older toy cars and my newer (2017) minivan daily.  If something were to happen to the minivan, I'd probably just find another used well-optioned Grand Caravan or a used Pacifca.   It nearly happened on Friday when I almost had a bad animal collision (I swerved just enough at 74 MPH and instead it just dented the door a bit).  It was big and heavy enough that a full-frontal impact might have done considerable damage. 

Steve said:

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to intentionally piss anyone off on here. 

Truthfully, there is a heavy does of jealousy on my side around families that are in the position to carry the open financial liability of a brand new car while still maintaining a hobby car. I can't make the math work. If I draw out the financing term for 6 years, it makes a big difference, but even then the monthly financial draw is no where near what I have seen in this thread. Can I make the assumption that you folks are making down payments in the neighborhood of used car prices? Or is there something I am missing entirely? 

Right now, my Passat, which after some extensive work, is entirely reliable, and was very specifically incredibly cheap. If I get anywhere in the neighborhood of my asking price, I will have gained money on the car or will come very close to being net zero for transportation costs (besides gas). It was a pain in the ass to get to this point, but I don't see another option. 

For someone who has bought new or certified used, what are some real numbers for your repayment? I'm not trying to bait anyone here, I'm genuinely curious as I would love to put my wife into something newer, safer, etc., and I see no path that nets me a payment per month that is even close to achievable based on moderately used or new vehicle prices out there. 

 

 

Being a DINK (dual income no kids) in a state with a low cost of living and above average income.

z31maniac said:

Steve said:

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to intentionally piss anyone off on here. 

Truthfully, there is a heavy does of jealousy on my side around families that are in the position to carry the open financial liability of a brand new car while still maintaining a hobby car. I can't make the math work. If I draw out the financing term for 6 years, it makes a big difference, but even then the monthly financial draw is no where near what I have seen in this thread. Can I make the assumption that you folks are making down payments in the neighborhood of used car prices? Or is there something I am missing entirely? 

Right now, my Passat, which after some extensive work, is entirely reliable, and was very specifically incredibly cheap. If I get anywhere in the neighborhood of my asking price, I will have gained money on the car or will come very close to being net zero for transportation costs (besides gas). It was a pain in the ass to get to this point, but I don't see another option. 

For someone who has bought new or certified used, what are some real numbers for your repayment? I'm not trying to bait anyone here, I'm genuinely curious as I would love to put my wife into something newer, safer, etc., and I see no path that nets me a payment per month that is even close to achievable based on moderately used or new vehicle prices out there. 

 

 

Being a DINK (dual income no kids) in a state with a low cost of living and above average income.

+1

Steve said:

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to intentionally piss anyone off on here. 

Truthfully, there is a heavy does of jealousy on my side around families that are in the position to carry the open financial liability of a brand new car while still maintaining a hobby car. I can't make the math work. If I draw out the financing term for 6 years, it makes a big difference, but even then the monthly financial draw is no where near what I have seen in this thread. Can I make the assumption that you folks are making down payments in the neighborhood of used car prices? Or is there something I am missing entirely? 

Right now, my Passat, which after some extensive work, is entirely reliable, and was very specifically incredibly cheap. If I get anywhere in the neighborhood of my asking price, I will have gained money on the car or will come very close to being net zero for transportation costs (besides gas). It was a pain in the ass to get to this point, but I don't see another option. 

For someone who has bought new or certified used, what are some real numbers for your repayment? I'm not trying to bait anyone here, I'm genuinely curious as I would love to put my wife into something newer, safer, etc., and I see no path that nets me a payment per month that is even close to achievable based on moderately used or new vehicle prices out there. 

 

 

 Steve you need to figure everything in a budget.   Do not ignore major costs. 
   A big one is fuel.  Assuming 12,000 miles a year ( average) and 22 mpg ( average) and $3.50 a gallon ( average). 
      That is $ 1900 a year or a little over $150 a month.  Plus oil changes every 5000 miles. @$70 ea.  so another $150 a year.  Tires and brakes on top of that.   Assume you keep a car for 10 years. That is more than $20,000 !   
      Figure your time in if you do it yourself. Just look on your paycheck for gross income.    Don't forget to add the time it takes to get the parts and return core charges.  
     If you are like me, you don't charge yourself anything but it costs you.  Maybe you go to work tired from working on the car, So you don't put in your best effort and miss a promotion?  Maybe dirt under your fingernails  causes it?    Instead of playing golf with your boss? •••• 
     The extra work has some real costs  although difficult to put an exact dollar on it.  But there is a real reason it's a 40 hour work week and not a 50 hour work week.  
    Then if you finance a used car the interest costs haven't been underwritten  by the factory or dealership.  So instead of paying 4% you're paying 9% or more.   
    Finally insurance.  Some options like smart cruise control that automatically put on brakes   Or blind spot indicators etc.  save you on insurance.    Normally Used cars don't get that even if they have  those options.   
       
       New cars typically don't need much if any work while you are making payments. Oh, you have to change oil etc same as a used car. Except,  some dealers give you a break on service work. .  My new Truck cost me $20 an oil change if I paid for it at the time of the purchase of the new truck. Yep I got every oil change for 6 years at $20. 
      My next one is going to be an EV so I can skip the $150 a month gas cost. EV's also save on oil changes and brakes ( because of regenerative braking) 

   The big one is $7500 rebate for buying a new EV 

   Chevy Bolt and next years Tesla are less than $30,000 and qualify. 
     
       

eastsideTim said:

Like codrus mentioned, a new car doesn't have to be that expensive.  If you just need basic transportation, you could probably still get a reasonable Kia/Hyundai for around 20K today. 

I've checked -- Autotrader shows only a handful of new cars available for under $20K today in all of metro Atlanta: the lower trim levels of the Kia Rio, Mitsubishi Mirage, and Nissan Versa.  Add in taxes and dealer fees, and it's hard to even get these for $20K out the door unless you qualify for some special dealer incentives.  Options get a little better at $25k, but that price means either a significantly higher monthly payment or an extra year financed.

Car makers get nearly no profit from cheap cars, and we're seeing the effects of that on dealership lots.  We bought a new 7 seat crossover in 2012 for $23K, and a minivan in 2016 for $25K.  Those days are gone.

We've always been thrifty, first out of need and now out of fiscal prudence.

Our most expensive and only new car was 24K out the door. This typically nets a payment of under $500

The most I've paid for a used car is 17K and the payment was  under $300

The most cash we spent on a car was 10K.

Both of our cars are now over 10 years old and have 115K and 140K on them.

In the next 5 years we will likely get a another car; The budget new or used is 30K.

As for working on the cars; now that I have a very good income I no longer do some of the jobs.

In reply to frenchyd :

Why don't you own one then? Go ahead, show us all how it's done. Have you installed your solar panels and wind generators yet? 

In reply to nderwater :

Looks like the Mirage and Rio base models around me have an asking price ranging from low 17k-18k range, so I suspect they could be had around 20K out the door, but yeah, things have definitely gotten worse in the last few years.  Versas seem to have a high enough asking price that unless the dealership will negotiate, they are not going out the door for under 20K.

With how bad late model used prices are nowadays, it might be worth driving a penalty box if you really want a warranty.

Edit: a local dealer is asking 18.9K for a brand new 2018 Fiat 500X.  That's only a little over 4K off MSRP, so probably not too far off of what if could be bought for in 2019.

To be fair, using OTD price is difficult. Sales taxes and registration fees vary wildly all over the country. 

I don't remember the exact number now, but I think sales tax/registration/etc fees, were about $2100 for my '23 BRZ Limited with a price around $34k because I added the STi shifter. And that's done after you buy the car, get the title, and go to the DMV. I think I've read on here some states do all that in the dealership before you drive off with the vehicle. 

frenchyd said:

nderwater said:

eastsideTim said:

Like codrus mentioned, a new car doesn't have to be that expensive.  If you just need basic transportation, you could probably still get a reasonable Kia/Hyundai for around 20K today. 

I've checked -- Autotrader shows only a handful of new cars available for under $20K today in all of metro Atlanta: the lower trim levels of the Kia Rio, Mitsubishi Mirage, and Nissan Versa.  Add in taxes and dealer fees, and it's hard to even get these for $20K out the door unless you qualify for some special dealer incentives.  Options get a little better at $25k, but that price means either a significantly higher monthly payment or an extra year financed.

Car makers get nearly no profit from cheap cars, and we're seeing the effects of that on dealership lots.  We bought a new 7 seat crossover in 2012 for $23K, and a minivan in 2016 for $25K.  Those days are gone.

Why ignore fuel?   Sure they may get good mileage but not as good as EV's get. 
   Then with Chevy Bolt it's a $7500 break. So you are in the low 20's. And saving $150 a month for fuel.  

He's not. He's talking specifically about the price of the car. 

I'm pretty sure everyone here that owns a car understands there are running costs like fuel, oil changes, tires, and other general repairs. We don't need to see the same reply about 12k miles and 3.50 fuel etc, every time a car purchase is brought up.