In reply to frenchyd :
Unless you're driving 100 miles a day, 5-6 days a week. At $3/gal gas the difference from a 20mpg car and a 30mpg car is $30/ week, or $1560/ year. Between a 20 and 40 is now $45/week or $2340. Over 5 years of ownership that's $8-12k dollars in fuel costs alone and that number only gets worse the more fuel costs or the longer you own the vehicle.
So maybe for YOU fuel economy is not a factor, but there is a world outside of you.
Here's one I stumbled onto a few months back: Audi S6 with the Lambo V10. Seems like $10k buys a decent one and, surprisingly, cursory research shows they might not be complete steaming piles, especially compared to say an E60 M5. I've seen more than a few for sale in the 200k mile range. Downside is abysmal fuel economy, and I have no idea what parts prices are like, but good god the noises are glorious.
bobzilla said:In reply to frenchyd :
Unless you're driving 100 miles a day, 5-6 days a week. At $3/gal gas the difference from a 20mpg car and a 30mpg car is $30/ week, or $1560/ year. Between a 20 and 40 is now $45/week or $2340. Over 5 years of ownership that's $8-12k dollars in fuel costs alone and that number only gets worse the more fuel costs or the longer you own the vehicle.
So maybe for YOU fuel economy is not a factor, but there is a world outside of you.
I bought a C4 Corvette and less than a month later the clutch went out. Back then it was something like $16-1800 installed.
Hmmmm.
I suppose I could call a Honda dealer or Subaru dealer and ask what a clutch job costs today but I suspect it's going to be near that neighborhood.
Sure someone can lay on the floor of their garage and save the labor costs. Assuming they have the tools, the skill, the knowledge, and the time? ( which eliminates most of the Children, elderly, female, and professionals ).
Yes there is a small portion of the population that meets those qualifications. But really aren't we in the distinct minority?
Even among real car enthusiasts like those reading this. How many have recently replaced a clutch in their daily driver?
Note I said daily driver? Sure the race cars get frequent replacements. But daily driver?
Plus a clutch job isn't the only expensive work on a car.
In reply to frenchyd :
Vehicle repairs cost money.
So fuel economy doesn't matter.
Hmmmmmmmm.
Got it.
rattlecan said:frenchyd said:In reply to rattlecan :
I differ from your definition of classic.
There are a whole slew of high dollar cars out there that depreciate like crazy while being an excellent value. Big high dollar cars like MB. BMW, Jaguar, etc.They often can be found cheaper than those economy cars you mentioned. The reason for that depreciation may have little to do with their mechanical condition but everything to do with the cost of repairs at the dealership. Bring it in for an oil change and it starts at $375 and is often well over $1000 with little more done than you can do for less than $50 in the driveway.
Parts instead of heading to the dealership you should go to Rock Auto. Or places like that. Join a club and find out who has good used parts. Often sitting untouched because the brainless way is to go to the dealership. Or you have to go to a few places before you find the deals.
A lot of us will get a car cheap because it's scruffy, needs a cleaning, and polish. Plus has a few broken bits. Sometimes we come across one not running that we can buy for scrap prices and use that for spares.
Think outside of the box of cheap. For a really good deal.Not to get too deep into semantics here, but what I meant is this. Once upon a time there were dozens of models of old, cheap amazing cars that it seemed like only car guys knew about. For instance, the Miata. Mocked and disparaged by the general public you could easily pick up a good runner that was cosmetically rough for $1000 and have a great platform. Fox mustangs we're once a dime a dozen. Same with e36 BMWs. Recently it seems that thanks to YouTube car influencers, swooning auto journalists, and the passing of time many of these models are now coveted. Miatas in my area are now $6k. So my question is what cars, if any, are we overlooking from the past 20 years? Honestly if you would have told me in the 90s that The Honda Civic hatchbacks favored by my friends divorced moms would be a future "hot rod" (I don't think the term tuner existed yet) I would have laughed. I don't want a bargain BMW 750 with $20k in deferred maintenance. I want an undiscovered Neon srt4. They must exist.
You bring up a great point. UTube.
They fawn all over whatever the hot common cars are. Virtually ignoring the less popular Jaguars, Audi's, BMW's etc.
Those you really have to dig for. You originally mentioned some of the more performance oriented but lower priced cars.
Like
A good running but ratty Honda Subaru, Ford Focus?
or the same from Performance versions of Jaguar, Audi, Mercedes', BMW?
Which do you suspect would give you better all out performance on a track night? And potentially have a greater up side?
I don't know the others, I know Jaguars have about a 25-30 year cycle. From introduction to bottom feeder status to rapidly appreciating.
No personal experience, but I would suggest that the XK8 and later XKF would offer the greatest potential. Since the sedan versions of those cars offer similar mechanicals. At more modest prices. Future viability should be excellent.
EvanB said:In reply to frenchyd :
Vehicle repairs cost money.
So fuel economy doesn't matter.
Hmmmmmmmm.
Got it.
That's what you learned? I'm sorry. I thought I was saying that used cars are a risk and cheap doesn't always equate to cheap ownership.
It's especially true if you are talking about cheaper used cars that by their nature get the absolute minimum because that's all their owners can afford.
Compared to some successful executive who rewards himself with a trophy car to pamper until his passing.
Back to a conversation closer to the title, how about G35 coupes? Maybe a middle point between common, cheap cars and those that are not cheap or common. Plus they look great...:D
In reply to frenchyd :
i Haven't ever had to replace a clutch in a daily. Ever. And you, once again, completely ignored the content of that actual post.
In reply to bobzilla :
You went into careful detail about the fuel costs. I responded to that.
bobzilla said:In reply to frenchyd :
i Haven't ever had to replace a clutch in a daily. Ever. And you, once again, completely ignored the content of that actual post.
I like automatic transmissions because they don't require constant clutch or clutch hydraulics repair.
I have not had any manual trans car for any length of time (usually 3yrs) that did not try to leave me stranded because of clutch failure.
Neither here nor there. But oddly enough, part of the reason my VW is laid up is because the clutch hose is NLA and the aftermarket does not make one. It is a really weird thread size, something like 14x1.0 in the slave.
Well ok then, this thread took a turn while I was at work, lol.
Back on topic, what about the Cadillac CTS? They are out there with a manual trans and there's a wicked fast CTS that races in the Champcar Endurance Series. I don't know much about them beyond that.
In reply to BlueInGreen - Jon :
Nice cars, but IMO kinda big to be performance cars. A lot of the manual trans cars had a 2.8 or 3.0 or something, not the 3.6.
Every CTS4 that I have seen had a clutch type limited slip in the rear, not sure if this is standard on the CTS4 or just a coincidence.
In reply to frenchyd :
No, you talked about a clutch change on a C4 corvette and how expensive clutches are to replace.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:In reply to BlueInGreen - Jon :
Nice cars, but IMO kinda big to be performance cars...
^ That one might disagree.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
This seems reasonable priced (in a new crazy world.) Asking $8.8k for 2008 CTS / 3.6L manual with 104k in Akron. Is that the same 3.6L as the V6 Camaro?
bobzilla said:In reply to frenchyd :
No, you talked about a clutch change on a C4 corvette and how expensive clutches are to replace.
In response to your comment 12 minutes after my comment that One clutch job could cost you all the fuel you saved.
My basic premise is that not all affordable performance cars started out as cheap economy cars.
DWNSHFT said:
Had one. Miss it.
In reply to BlueInGreen - Jon :
If you can afford the expensive consumables, sure, though I doubt anyone is sleeping on a CTS-V.
There are a lot of formerly expensive performance cars that can be bought for modest money. Not just the Cadillac.
If you are a DIY guy they can a fantastic bargain. If you need the dealer or others to do the work for you. Don't go that direction.
In reply to calteg :
The #527 racecar is 2003 or 2004 with a 3.6 and 6 speed. Pretty sure the flares and hood vents are DIY
The existence of the CTSV just means there's an easy button for brake upgrades ;)
frenchyd said:There are a lot of formerly expensive performance cars that can be bought for modest money. Not just the Cadillac.
If you are a DIY guy they can a fantastic bargain. If you need the dealer or others to do the work for you. Don't go that direction.
Yeah, I agree. I have a fondness for the LS430. They're like 6k-ish around me and generally pretty well babied. The existence of the VIP scene means there's enough parts to cobble together something that resembles a performance suspension, though in fairness, they were pretty good in stock form anyway.
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