What diesel pickup for highway hauling?

oldopelguy wrote: CDL gets a little sticky when you don't own the loads and are transporting them for hire. Essentially a load for hire is always commercial, if only a class C. Some jurisdictions let it ride, but all it takes is one stickler LEO and you would be done. With a load >10k# you get into a common confusion area too. Universally 26k total with >10k of it on the trailer is always class A CDL. When you get a total 10k you are in a gray area that gets misunderstood as much by LEOs as by everyone else. Add that the load is for hire and you will almost always have to have a CDL. Getting a CDL has some other ramifications too, like the 15mph over the limit automatic suspension on the second offense kind of stuff.

thats some good info.. probably something to look into, especially at the OP is from Canada.

oldopelguy wrote: CDL gets a little sticky when you don't own the loads and are transporting them for hire.

What happens if I am transporting loads I own?

In short, I am essentially doing importation of a product for distribution in Canada. It is prohibitively expensive to ship via other companies at the smaller quantities I want.

There is a business case to be made where this could expand quickly, but I am unwilling to dive in head first. I like being cautious, my reasonable risk level is starting small. Eventually the business could grow to justify paying a transport company to do that portion of the business.

I do not have my cdl. In Canada, I only need my "class 5" for under 26k lbs and electric trailer brakes commercially. Canada and USA have a licence reciprosity agreement, HOWEVER, I need to look further into it.

Edit- I am on my phone, not ignoring you svrex, just want to write a substantial post to answer your questions, this is all super helpful which is why I am asking!

HiTempguy wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: Look carefully at a new one. That's how I ended up with a new 4x4 2500 Dodge when I was looking in 2010 - the used ones just didn't make sense. I went with the 2500 instead of the 3500 because of the softer spring set, which I bolstered via a set of airbags for when I'm loaded up. Makes for a good dual-purpose setup and keeps the truck level when loaded. It's a far cry from my father-in-law's 2006 3500 Dodge in terms of civility, and he's started muttering about trading up.

I was told the 2500 Dodges were rougher than the 3500's, because you ran into the additional helper spring pack when loaded. I'm definitely interested if that isn't the case, as I would love to run airbags as I think they are god's gift to man! Do you have the 5.9L or the 6.7L? If buying new, my main concern is emissions and durability/maintenance costs. I know the older cummins a bit, and I really know gm pickups, I just would hate to be one of the people who bought a 6.0L Ford and lost dearly because of such a crappy product! I really have no problem buying new, especially since I'd be using it for personal use and hauling my rallycar, I'd end up just mile'ing it out.

I can tell you that the ride difference between my 2500 (2010 model) and my father in law's 2006 3500 is dramatic. I'll take a peek underneath and see if there is an additional helper pack, but I've never had a complaint about the ride. Maybe it's because when I'm loaded, the airbags are keeping me off the helper springs.

I have the 6.7. No DEF required. Despite horror stories, the particulate filters have been no worry. I can tell when it's burning it off because the mileage drops for a little while. The only time it's pinged me that the filters were getting full was after the cross-country 3000+ mile non-stop run to Newfoundland. I figured it never had a chance to go into regen with that load. A run up in the interstate and it was all happy again.

It's also considerably quieter than the 5.9 in the 2006. Just a distant grumble and a little whistle from the turbo when it loads up. It's a really nice cross-country hauler.

SVreX wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: Diesel trucks don't depreciate all that much.

Not sure I agree, if we are talking about a $60k truck.

I'm sure the pimped out versions with the unborn baby calf leather depreciate. I'm talking about TRUCKS Mine's not a hose-em-out special, but you're also not going to see it in a Superbowl ad with a loving slow pan across the dashboard.

At the time I bought mine, trucks with 40-60k were going for about $10k less than a new one. Meanwhile, I got ridiculously cheap financing, a warranty and the chance to care for my truck from day 1. I'm planning on a long-term relationship And I didn't pay $60k. It didn't hurt that we get a pretty killer deal from Dodge due to my wife's work, I basically get fleet pricing.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

I generally don't buy new.

But I went to a Ford dealership out of curiosity recently, and was pretty shocked at the prices.

$60K won't buy a King Ranch. $50K will buy a very nice truck. They didn't have ANYTHING on the lot under $40K.

HTG is talking about one of the heaviest built pickups on the market, though not necessarily the highest trim level. He also mentioned new, so I am assuming there is at least a possibility that such a truck could be pushing $60K (Which I think will depreciate 20% just by driving it off the lot).

It could be regional. But late model used diesel pickups around here aren't a whole lot less than new diesel pickups until the odometer hits 100k.

I don't usually buy new either. But the math worked in this case.

SVreX wrote: Look harder at towing capacity charts for the various models. That will be the most compelling reason to consider a newer truck, probably a dually. You said the MINIMUM you need is 14,500.

Well, actually, I said the minimum I "preferred" But I do appreciate what you are saying :) In short, I can change the weight of the load I am carrying a bit because of quantity. I would PREFER to be able to tow >14k lbs, more like up to 16k lbs.

SVreX wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: Diesel trucks don't depreciate all that much.

Not sure I agree, if we are talking about a $60k truck.

Even here in diesel country, the trucks still do depreciate at the end of the day. Typically the cut off point is 10 years/200,000kms. It seems that higher mileage is acceptable if the truck is newer, due to the advantages the newer trucks have on paper.

The cheapest brand new diesel is $55k after tax. That's about as much as I could reasonably fathom spending, and even then puts me at the edge of my comfort level! (diesel trucks are about $10k+ cheaper off the lot in the USofA).

SVreX wrote: BTW, you compromise towing capacity rating with 4x4. Single wheel and shorter wheel bases (smaller cabs) also compromise towing capacity.

Considering it snows 7 months of the year here, 4x4 is non-optional. If I was operating a business of multiple trucks, AND they were only doing highway working miles, I'd consider it. At this time, as a single truck that doubles as a personal vehicle, its a sacrifice in towing capability I am willing to make :) I also prefer a crewcab because I could then (possibly) sleep in the truck, which is nice sometimes as hotels are expensive. At the same time though, looking at this as an actual business, hotels are a reasonable expense to have.

Dr. Hess wrote: My friend who tows a great deal, think maxed out (probably overloaded) three axle 5th wheel, has towed with a 1 ton 4x4 non-dually and a 1 ton 4x4 dually. He said the dually towed a lot better and stopped a lot better. If this is primarily a tow rig, I would not rule out the dually.

I appreciate the perspective! My main issue with a dually isn't even driving it, it is the fact that I do not have anyplace to put it at this time or the foreseeable future. I have a spot for the 26' aluminum gooseneck this endeavor will involve, but that doesn't leave anywhere for the truck.

In short, there are some compromises that have to be made. At the end of the day, I can start out small and easily ramp my way up. Starting out too big makes me feel like it would be hard to shrink.

To start out with, I am thinking something like this:

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/calgary/2003-dodge-power-ram-3500-laramie-pickup-truck/1016811225?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

The 2003 ram 3500 4x4 shortbox quad cab is rated to tow 15750lbs:

http://dodgeram.info/2003/load-tow/3500SRW.html

This would work well, as the trailer would weigh 3000lbs. Minus me plus my crap I would travel with (including a spare tire for the trailer and tools) puts me at around 12000lbs of towing capacity. That would be more than enough to start by my calculations. If things ended up going as well as I "think" they could, I would step up to a new truck next year.

I have an '04.5 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab 6.6L Duramax that sneezes at 14k on a gooseneck. I'm not sure what is actually legal to pull with it - but when my buddy's dually broke down I pulled his 48' tri-axle dual car stacker fully loaded with 2 E36 race cars, tools, 10 sets of tires, AC units, and all kinds of heavy gear... across the mountains of PA for him.

I got 13mpg and aside from feeling the weight when slowing down it was mostly like the truck wasn't working too hard.

I highly recommend the Chevy.

Not sure about Alberta but in BC you need a class one or a heavy trailer endorsement if the trailer weighs over 4500kgs. I pull 14000 pounds all the time and I am on my third dually, each successively newer. The current one (2008 Dodge with a 6.7)is the first one that I am really comfortable in both pulling and STOPPING. It has been bullet proof although after 180000 kms I finally pulled the emissions off because the DPF was plugged solid.

Don't forget that although some older trucks have great engines the rest of the driveline is not so much. My brother had a 7.3 and he went through 4 transmissions. On the older Dodges the front end wears out every 30000 km when you pull weight. you always have to put up with something, and on an older truck with less than awesome brakes suspension and driveline it would be very stressfull to do it regularly.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I have an '04.5 Chevy 2500HD Crew Cab 6.6L Duramax that sneezes at 14k on a gooseneck. I'm not sure what is actually legal to pull with it - but when my buddy's dually broke down I pulled his 48' tri-axle dual car stacker fully loaded with 2 E36 race cars, tools, 10 sets of tires, AC units, and all kinds of heavy gear... across the mountains of PA for him. I got 13mpg and aside from feeling the weight when slowing down it was mostly like the truck wasn't working too hard. I highly recommend the Chevy.

http://www.trailerlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Trailer-Life-Towing-Guide-2004.pdf

Says 15.5k, big thing being that its a gooseneck. Bumper pulls are limited (unsure if agreed on by manufacturers as a gentleman rule, or if hitches can only deal with so much tongue weight, or if legislated by the gov) 12k lbs.

Duramax's are hella expensive though in these neck of the woods... part of the reason my focus is on cummins.

I'm also focused on 6 speed manual cummins vs autos as the 4 speed autos in dodges are known to fail behind diesels. On top of that, manuals are worth way less.

I obviously want to stay within the limits set out as I do not want to be on the wrong side of DOT. I'll also be dealing with scales, so it kind of goes without saying I DO NOT WANT TO TOW OVERWEIGHT.

At least in the current generation, the manual Cummins trucks are handicapped a bit. There's a torque limiter below a certain speed and they don't have as much peak torque. If you look at the dyno charts, the loss is all at the top end and obviously from straight boost level, but it's there.

I bought a stick because I didn't like the way the auto shifted. So far, no real regrets although there is the issue of dropping boost on downshifts when you're climbing a mountain. I lose more speed than an auto would.

FWIW, I have two 3/4-ton SRW trucks for towing and they work great.

My 1990 F-250HD club cab with a 460EFI and E4OD will pull 12,5000lb

My wife's 2000 F-250 Superduty crew cab with a 7.3 Powerstroke and 4R100 will pull 10,000lb

I love both trucks but my big block gas tows better than her PSD.

Our smaller tow rig at work is a 2006 GMC 3500 DRW crew cab with a Duramax.

The GMC dually will out tow both of my Fords but the maneuverability on it sucks compared to my SRW trucks.

We ended up changing up to a Freightliner Sportchassis truck to haul our big enclosed car hauler because it works so much better than the GMC.

The mini-freight is the biggest thing you can drive in B.C. without needing a CDL. It costs more than the GMC but it will last a whole lot longer in towing service.

I'd look at a Certified Pre-Owned myself, and someplace warm with lots of trucks, like down south or out west. Someplace that will have less rust, but still have people that think they need a 4x4 3500 for the point of having one. Then POR-15 the frame, and keep it for 10 years, writing off the depreciation for each year.

In reply to HiTempguy:

Make sure that truck you are looking at is an HO truck, not an SO. (High output vs standard output).

The SO had 235 hp and 455 lb/ft. The HO had 305 hp and 550 lb/ft.

The tow rating you referenced (15,750) was the HO. The SO was only rated for 12,950.

Not sure about the truck you linked.

Here's a good thread discussing the differences:

2003 HO vs SO

Yep, all 2003/2004 6 speeds are high output models :)

There is a very easy way to check (I am told), cummins puts a big ol' stamped steel tag that tells you what you are looking at on the side of the motor, I won't be taking any chances!

I don't have as much towing experience as most in this thread, so my comments are minimal as far as which truck to chose. IMHO, get the cleanest, lowest miles one you can afford, brand irrelevant.

First - don't assume a manual Dodge is better than the auto versions. I made that mistake when I bought my '95 Cummins. The 5 spds they put in those were terrible. A 6 spd conversion is possible and is an upgrade, but by most accounts I was reading, it still wasn't as good as a well built auto. As mentioned previously, in many cases the autos are better rated for towing, are often more reliable, and upgrades are easier/cheaper (quantity of scale).

Around here, the manuals command a premium because they are rare. If I had been willing to settle for an automatic, I would have gotten a much better truck for the same money (I paid $9K in '07; sold it 1.5 years ago for $2500 due to many issues I didn't want to deal with).

I've read the biggest reason to go for a dually for towing is stability. Especially on the hwy at speed with cross-winds. Essentially, the extra wheels add a safety factor in keeping the tail from wagging the dog, so to speak.

I can understand what you're saying, but if you a hauling a trailer long distances as "a result" of your business and not "as your business", then you'll want to consolidate those hauls as much as possible, which means loading that bitch up to the max as often as possible. It's sort of like an airline carrying passengers - the operational costs to fly an empty plane and a full plane aren't a ton different, but full plane makes a hell of a lot more money. You want to spread those transportation costs over as much product as possible.

I'm not sure what the Canadian requirements are, but in the US and I am pretty sure you'd need a Log book to do what you're doing, although possibly not a CDL. When I was active on the Cummins forums, I met a guy who used his '96 2500 12V 4x4 to contract-haul RV trailers all over the country for a few years. He said he made a fair amount of money doing this, but it was stressful work, often due to making sure the log book was current and making sure his sleep/rest times were legal - hard to do when making the long hauls he was doing. He has a nice website he set up that was pretty much a laundry list of upgrades I wished I could have done to my truck (6 spd, manual hubs, etc...) had it not rusted to hell.

HiTempguy wrote: Yep, all 2003/2004 6 speeds are high output models :) There is a very easy way to check (I am told), cummins puts a big ol' stamped steel tag that tells you what you are looking at on the side of the motor, I won't be taking any chances!

I don't think that is correct.

All HO's are 6 speeds, but the SO was available with both the 5 and the 6 speed.

SVreX wrote: I don't think that is correct. All HO's are 6 speeds, but the SO was available with both the 5 and the 6 speed.

I can not find any info that says a 6 speed was available with the SO. I will make sure to check any tag on a cummins before I purchase though :)

As for logbook, I absolutely would have to run one. I have friends in the trucking industry who are educating me on that :) still unsure about cdl, I am looking into that. Hot shot guys are familiar with the rules so I am chatting with them :)

I absolutely agree about towing as much as possible per trip :) Knowing the way my profit margins would work, I "earn" a lot more money by having the truck useful in everyday life thsn having it haul a couple hundred extra pounds :)

As an initial startup, a dually simply isnt feasible as storage costs would quickly kill this idea. If the business grows, dually all the way!

You only need to fill out a pre trip post trip and log book if you travel more than 160 km from home base. If you are licensed for more than 10500 kgs but stay within 160 k of home you need to fill out pre and post trip inspections only.

bearmtnmartin wrote: You only need to fill out a pre trip post trip and log book if you travel more than 160 km from home base. If you are licensed for more than 10500 kgs but stay within 160 k of home you need to fill out pre and post trip inspections only.

You may be right, but maybe not.

HTG hasn't told us enough to know that.

Those are Canadian rules, not US.

He said he would be importing stuff. He didn't say whether or not he would be driving in the US.

I am betting he will need to abide by the rules of both countries.

I would look at trucks like the Freightliner. They will drive turn and stop better and being underworked should hold up much better as well.

As for the license getting a CDL is not that difficult and will probably cut down on headaches at border crossings and truck inspections. While you may be legal without one its often easier to be able to hand one over than explain to a misinformed officer why he is wrong.

Wally wrote: I would look at trucks like the Freightliner. They will drive turn and stop better and being underworked should hold up much better as well. As for the license getting a CDL is not that difficult and will probably cut down on headaches at border crossings and truck inspections. While you may be legal without one its often easier to be able to hand one over than explain to a misinformed officer why he is wrong.

Therefore, CDLs issued by Canadian jurisdictions in conformance with the licensing standards established in the Canadian National Safety Code will be honored in the United States. Canadian drivers will not be required to obtain Nonresident CDL in order to operate commercial vehicles in this country. Moreover, to ensure the single license concept, Canadian drivers holding a commercial driver's license issued by a Canadian Jurisdiction will be prohibited from obtaining a driver's license, commercial or noncommercial, from a State or other licensing jurisdiction of the United States. Appendix A contains the text of the Administrator's determination as made in a letter to the Canadian Government on December 23, 1988. By letter of December 29, 1988, the Canadian Government has made an analogue determination with respect to 49 CFR 383, and thus, once implementation at the State level is complete, is extending similar reciprocity to CDLs issued by the States in conformity with the United States standards. The complete letter from the Canadian Government appears as Appendix B. Taken together, Appendix A and B constitutes an understanding between the United States and Canada relating to the reciprocal recognition of CDLs.

It might not actually be possible for me to get a US CDL. Obviously, more looking into it/phone calls will have to be made :)

As for a freightliner, as I said before, if the business grows large enough to warrant having a semi haul the load, I will GLADLY pay a transport company to do so. Currently, I can not justify that with the scale I am starting at. A fullsize HD pickup fits the bill I think. I would be driving under 50,000kms per year (more like 25,000).

Edit-

SVreX wrote: You may be right, but maybe not. HTG hasn't told us enough to know that. Those are Canadian rules, not US. He said he would be importing stuff. He didn't say whether or not he would be driving in the US. I am betting he will need to abide by the rules of both countries.

I would be driving in the USofA as well as Canuckistan :)

The mini-freight is NOT a semi, it's a medium-duty truck, it's single axle in the rear and pulls a gooseneck trailer.

Put our GMC 3500 on the 35' pace gooseneck, then put the Mini-Fright on. The Freightliner turns tighter, stops faster and pulls better.

The GMC will wear out a whole lot sooner too.

You wouldn't get a CDL in the states but the equivalent Canadian license as they are both treated the same way.

I love me some Cummins, however; something to consider. Diesels eat transmissions. One of the reasons is the violent vibes they make. Now, consider a 300 hp Cummins I6 versus a 300 hp V8 stroke or Dmax. The V8s make a 37.5 hp "hit" every 90 degrees of crank rotation. The I6 makes a 50hp "hit" every 120 degrees of crank rotation. The Cummins itself is an awesome engine, but having run transmission repair shops for as long as I did, you don't want to see the damage inside a Dodge tranny behind a Cummins. Add to that the fact that Dodge transmissions are (in general) much more expensive to build and it can be a scary thing. The G56 and NV5600 manuals behind the Cummins are beefy, but when they go... they GO.

I'm not sure it would prevent me from owning one though. The benefits of the Cummins kinda outweigh the damage for a DIY guy like me. I personally detest the fact that they come wrapped in a Dodge truck, so my Cummins would have to be dropped in an F350.

The Ford 6.7L is proving to be an amazing thing, especially when paired with the 6R140 auto transmission. You're wise to avoid the 6.0 and 6.4L. Its not easy to find, but a low-mileage 7.3L truck will run a 5-speed for a long time. Replacement used transmissions are relatively cheap and plentiful.

Duramax trucks are fantastic. Finding one with a manual is tough, but the Allison rocks. Do a couple upgrades to the valve body and programming on the Allison and it will last a very long time. I like to avoid the 04-05 LB7 trucks for two reasons: 1- they have injector issues and the injectors are under the valve covers, and 2- the later Dmaxes mostly had VVT turbos. The LLY/LBZ trucks are my favorites. LMM and later trucks make great power, but the DPF will suck MPGs way down. I have an 04 and an 08 Dmax. the 04 gets 22 mpg unloaded all the time and the 08 gets 16 if you're lucky.

At 15k with a gooseneck dually is not required, but ask yourself how many miles you'll be driving. I tow a LOT. If you're towing a few times a year for 500 miles, skip the dually. You'll have white knuckles if its windy or rainy, but its OK. If you tow a lot, DO NOT SKIMP ON THE TOW VEHICLE. I frequently used to put 14k miles or more a year on my F250 with a 30' TT. (full time RVing). It was a 10k trailer (bumper tow) and it was fine if the conditions were great. If there was wind, lots of truck traffic, rain, or other poor conditions, I finished the day grumpy and with high blood pressure. To me (personally) 15k will ALWAYS mean dually, even with a gooseneck. I've owned duallys and SRW trucks. The dually was 5% harder to park and navigate city streets, and it costs 50% more when it comes time for tires, but holy cripes is it ever worth it.

Just my opinion, take it or leave it.

Trans_Maro wrote: The mini-freight is NOT a semi, it's a medium-duty truck, it's single axle in the rear and pulls a gooseneck trailer. The GMC will wear out a whole lot sooner too.

Considering I am not buying a new truck, I sincerely doubt I can afford a mini-freight. As I've said, if it gets to be a big enough deal to be making a 5500km trip more than 6 times a year, I will be getting someone else to do the hauling :) Also, as to what I just said, wearing out isn't really an issue, as long as its not prematurely wearing out!

Wally wrote: You wouldn't get a CDL in the states but the equivalent Canadian license as they are both treated the same way.

I comprende. The problem with that is that my equivalent is literally my everyday Class 5 driver's licence. Dunno how well that would fair down south. Like I said, need to look into it more!