In reply to prodarwin :
Thank you very much. It's a crying shame because I love the FiST so much. Will read up on SF
In reply to prodarwin :
Thank you very much. It's a crying shame because I love the FiST so much. Will read up on SF
In reply to DjGreggieP :
How come? Parts are just slow to get so it takes a while to repair it?
Don't need a daily - everything I need is within walking distance right now so I'd be ok with the car being down for a bit for repairs.
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
The 8th gen si is cool, it's just leagues behind the top 3 and I really didn't love the steering feel. It's worse to me than the ek civic coupe in all respects except the engine which was awesome.
In reply to prodarwin :
I think I've said it before but I do not care one bit about cosmetics. If worse cosmetics get the price down and allow me to get a cooler car for cheaper. Or get me less rust or mechanical issues for cheaper, then give me a dent in every body panel, zero clear coat, scratches on every surface and missing paint.
In reply to bbbbRASS :
Thank you very much. Got some internship stuff going on this evening but I looked at the link and will go through it when I get the chance.
In terms of track time - I can't maximize it. I've got neither the money nor time to. But what I can do is take advantage of the limited time I will be able to have on track, and enjoy it.
I did notice the e90 being, like you said, a bit more of a comfy cruiser - inertia and tuning are a big deal. However, that engine was amazing. My favorite part of the car. And the juvenile allure of the tail out is a big one
As someone who spends his life on the racetrack I can assure you that the E90 is far more than a comfy cruiser. Stock for stock a 328i will keep up with a first gen frisbee no problem. Then when the frisbee blows up the E90 will be hella faster 
. They are track cars and cruisers.
In reply to Evanuel9 :
Heavier yes, which is why running costs are higher. More brake pad, gas, and rubber. Handling is still great because of well tuned chassis and balanced weight. It does better on mountain twisties than light FWD cars that are unbalanced. Track works well, but you need to learn your braking points.
In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :
Sorry, I meant more in terms of my test drive experience on the street. Not in terms of track ability. I have no doubt it's very capable
In reply to bbbbRASS :
Thanks. Honestly I have a bit of thinking to do but I'm very tempted by your car. I'll go through the drive this evening.
I don't know what the minor issues are on bbbbRASS car, perhaps I missed it earlier in the thread. However if that car is clean and well serviced it's a steal, and waaaay better than the other things you're looking at.
In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :
Yeah it seems mechanically clean. Vampire drain on the battery, front suspension clunk are the two biggest issues.
So to summarize the consensus:
Frisbees would be fine for only daily driving, but even with survivability mods my first track day is a 50/50 shot at engine failure via trial by fire, and subsequent track days are still susceptible to popping. Street reliability is fine. From this thread track day engine blowing is a near inevitability.
FiSTs have the risk of rollover, especially with autocross. Also the cheaper or higher mileage ones are worse reliability wise but to be honest I haven't really figured out why. Any more thoughts?
318tis and other 318s will probably be best for a reliable track toy, but the fact of being a 30 year old bmw may mean parts accessibility problems and more TLC needed for 30 year old car things that wear out which may be problematic for dailying
standard econobox fwd hatches like the fit, rio, mazda2, accent, etc will give me the most cheap time spent on track, while still providing sufficient driving enjoyment. Still susceptible to rollover risk (do sedan variants fix this? Same height but less sheet metal up top).
e90 bmw provides tons of track capability and reliability but parts cost is higher, tougher on consumables, and driving feedback is muted due to the comfort.
saabs and similar larger midsize/compact sedans/hatches like the mazda3 offer less rollover risk with similar reliability and track time benefits. Sentra se-r is a good unloved example, and the 8th gen civic si is one of the best options in this class.
Get something that isn't cool but reliable above all else.
one more question on the FRS - does all of that apply to nicer condition more expensive ones. If there are inherent problems in the engine design or if the engine has high chances of blowing at the track, wouldn't that still apply both to cheaper, worse condition ones and nicer, better condition ones
No, a frisbee is going to be a risk on or off the track... again because Subaru. Sure, a higher price one is likely a lower risk, however that's probably because it's lower mileage and or well cared for. Even then, it's just a matter of time. Fact it doesn't matter is that it's a super fun platform, but you're not in a position to afford one.
The 318i can I come there's a couple would have been an extremely reliable car If this were 1997 or even 2007. However, it's 2024 and those cars are now several decades old. It is going to be non-stop upkeep and maintenance. I know you say you don't care about things like interior quality, but I'm willing to bet in a short time of ownership you will.
I'm not at all trying to be mean or rude. My point is that we can make as many 12-page long threads as we want to, but the answer is going to be the same. The smart idea for you right now is a reliable and sporty economy car. If you want to find a way to justify a frisbee, you can. None of us are going to say it's a good idea though. The choice is yours.
The cars at the top of your list are expensive for a reason. Good examples are out of your price range and or too risky.
I went through this exact exercise with my son several times. He wound up buying a Chevy HHR SS. It has not been without its challenges, and I sometimes think he is regretting his decision.
We all get it, cool fast cars are more fun. However, this sounds to me like setting yourself up for a painful event.
Start with a locally available car so you don't add on the risks of travel, our of state titles, dramatic breakdowns hundreds of miles from home etc. Take half of your 10k, get the best car you can find for 5k (Civic or something similar with aftermarket support), then you do some mods over time.
Also, if your plan is to start autocrossing, you'll have more fun and learn more quickly with something lower powered, while spending less money on tires and other consimables.
In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :
Sometimes I wish I were stupid enough to just make bad decisions without trying to look for good ones. Now I can't justify a frisbee to myself 😆😆.
So frisbee is out. FiST is probably out on account of rollover, but I've yet to be completely convinced of their unreliability.
I'm really tempted by the 330i that bbbbRASS is selling but I want to ask a couple questions seeing as you have an e90. Since I will likely have more autocross than track time, and it is the biggest and heaviest of the bunch, will I still be able to learn, have fun, and do ok in autocrossing? Is the weight and size a big detriment to consumables, particularly tires and brakes, on track?
I'll give it a couple years, save up my internship money, and buy an frs with money leftover for a new engine or k swap haha.
In reply to XLR99 (Forum Supporter) :
It not about the cool factor, and even less about the speed. I don't care about slow - I loved the Honda fit which is one of the slowest cars you can buy. It's about what I really enjoyed driving on the street.
Like my other comment said - frisbees are out, at least for a few years until I have more money (but by then I'll probably end up in a Miata when I start paying for my own insurance).
For autocross, I asked sjkss but would an e90 330i be ok at it without destroying me on consumables. Not going to be winning anything but mainly learning and having fun. The one that bbbbRASS is selling looks like a good deal and is very tempting because it's a GRM seller and would probably be easier to get up to me
The FiST is not a rollover risk on the road. I haven't autoxd it but I don't see it likely to roll over there either. I just think it's a bad idea because you can't afford a good one.
The E90....or Fit, or Mazda2 or Mazda3 or Civic will be fine in autox. You can absolutely have fun, learn and be competitive in any of these. The E90 isn't THAT big. Plenty of cars its size or bigger are plenty of fun. In fact, you are probably better off. A well built frisbee or FiST is going to let you get away with bad habits and you will not learn proper car control. You will learn so much more in a fairly stock E90 or Fit or something.
Just as a matter of perspective, and not a brag, this is my current view. I spend a lot of time with performance driving. Trust me when I tell you that you don't need the kind of car you think you do.
ojannen said:I am sad that nobody else has noticed the polka dotted headliner on the good 318ti.
A high ratio welded diff in a 318ti means drifting. Drifting = bad for the next owner. A 3.73 ratio diff suggests 4500-5000 rpm at 70mph. Considering that traffic moves at 80mph where I am from, that is high for me.
I don't turn RPM that high with 4.78s.
In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :
How does the e90 compare in consumables cost for track/autocross to the fit, mazda2, or civic. Obviously it's between 400-1000 lbs heavier than them so that will mean more tire wear, brake wear, etc. but how does this translate to cost? What kind of coats do you rack up with your e90 at track days or autocross?
I'm surprised to hear you say that. I often hear the opposite - that smaller, lower powered cars require less mistakes to be fast because you don't have to power to make up for losing speed in corners.
In reply to Evanuel9 :
I thought I made a pretty good gone with the wind joke about the headliner. I am not sure how tea is related but the polka dot car is in the best condition of the 318tis you have listed.
I recommend a car with all the airbags in place, working abs, and traction control. I think arguing about a few hundred pounds or specifics of suspension design is missing the point. Cars are the most fun #1 when you are alive, #2 when they aren't wrapped around a tree, and #3 when they aren't in the shop. Make sure those priorities are in place first.
The only real decision you need to make regarding track performance is to not buy an SUV.
Or I decide to financially suicide myself and get a gtv6. LOL. Not actually considering it but it was too cool not to share
Evanuel9 said:I'm surprised to hear you say that. I often hear the opposite - that smaller, lower powered cars require less mistakes to be fast because you don't have to power to make up for losing speed in corners.
At 255hp/3400lb, an E90 330 is only slightly better weight/power (13.3) than an FRS (200hp/2800lb and 14.0). By contrast, the canonical "slow" track car is a Miata at 16.7, and "fast" is a Corvette at 11 or better.
I would also say that different types of cars have different strengths and weaknesses and will cover up/punish different classes of mistakes. I don't think there's a general rule.
In reply to ojannen :
you did - unfortunately I've never seen it lol.
I don't think the quibbles are about lbs or suspension design, but rather the potential difficulties in learning track driving on a car with potential snap oversteer like the 318ti.
Agreed on those priorities, but honestly, and call me an idiot teen, i'm not too worried about extra safety features like side airbags. Parents have mandated the existence of airbags, so as long as I meet that requirement I'm good. Definitely agree on ABS though - that is one electronic nanny I believe in. Humans can't threshhold brake better than ABS
A 3300lb car like an E90 is going to use more consumables, but I don't think it would be enough to be a huge concern unless you track it daily. Autox doesn't use a ton of brakes, etc.. You also would be better served to use stock brakes and just sporty tires instead of track tires.
I think you are misunderstanding me. You are referring to a "momentum car". Yes, on a track day you have to do things right to get the best lap time. That's not what I'm thinking about. A car with amazing handling and or tons of power will overcome poor driving techniques and keep the car safe. For example if you turn in early, sticky tires can cover that mistake and let you navigate the corner. If you get into that bad habit it can bite you as you start going faster and faster. You could wind up hurting yourself or worse. An "average" car will start to slide or give you warnings at low speed when you do something wrong, forcing you to learn how to drive properly (and correct if you make a mistake) before you can go faster. As an instructor, nothing is more terrifying to me than a student with a new C8 (as an example) with no experience).
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