X1/9 or MR2?

I am looking for my next project and really am interested in doing a k-swapped X1/9. I have found a few good examples but nothing local that is not rusted to death. I really like the X 1/9 and we had one back in the 80's so I am partial to them.  The kit to install the k-series Honda drivetrain from  Midwest-Bayless seems to be pretty expensive for what you get, so I have been doing some research to see what are the alternatives. 

I discovered that the AW11 MR2 is also available with  k-swap options. Vendors like Huxracing have engine mount kits and solutions for the shifter and clutch hydraulics that don't require cutting up the subframe or other major surgery. Axles are a part number you can order from the driveshaftshop.com. Looks like this is a much simpler engine swap that can be done for way less $$$ than doing a similar swap on an X1/9.

Rust on either of these cars is always an issue, so I know the goal is to find a solid example, preferably one with a blown engine or transmission since I won't need either for my project. Personally I prefer the X1/9 looks wise, but the very similar MK1 MR2 is very similar, very 80's and cool in it's own way. I have found a solid MR2 project that may be the basis of this project. 

So what do you all think? I had an MR2 Turbo but have no experience driving the early version, anyone have experience with both cars?

I've driven a few 1st gen MR2s including a supercharged one and owned a couple of X1/9s. The MR2s are neat and (IMHO) you do notice that they've been designed a decade later.

I still want another X1/9, but not necessarily another MR2. Go figure.

Long time MKII owner. Don't care for the MK1. Driven SC and non SC, not my cup of tea. 

You like the X 1/9 better. You said it yourself.  You should go for that. 

IMHO, the more important question is which do you like more?  You are going to do a LOT of work on the car, which will require a lot of love and forward thinking of what it will end up being.  So the car you like the most will likely get worked on more often.

BTW, thinking of a similar swap (not really, just dreaming), there was a pretty solid looking X1/9 in So Cal with the head off.  A great swap candidate.  So they are out there.  That was a few months ago.  I'm sure an MR2 will be considerably easier to find.

Imo Xweb.com is the best single car forum I've ever had the pleasure of being involved with.

So handling wise, do they drive similar? Either project is going to have a k-swap done so don't compare power (as neither car is fast in stock form) but how they drive, and handle. Reviews of the MR2 talk about the amazing handling, but curious if it is the same feeling as an X1/9 or different since it is a much newer design?

I’ve owned both, and am starting a similar swap. 

The AW11 is heavier. The X is really light and nimble. 

But the AW11 is a newer platform, with better suspension dynamics. 

Lighter and more nimble vs newer. 

I chose the MR2. 

I think you may like the X better. 

In reply to SVreX :

This is helpful, I know the MR2 is about 200 pounds heavier, but was not sure how much you could feel it when you drive it. The newer suspension dynamics is a consideration and newer means less electrical and other issues. As much as I love the X, I have several older cars and are pretty much in the "restorod" camp at this point. The 83 Bertone X1/9 I am considering may be a newer one, but it is still pretty much an older 70's design. I may go see an MR2 project this weekend as I am less familiar with them other than admiring them when they first came out. 

In reply to dherr :

The MR2 is a much better car.  My dad DD's one from 85 until he retired, and I enjoyed taking that car for a spin.  Easy to drive long distances, and it does not punish you.  Dad still thinks it was in the top 3 of all the cars he owned, right along side a '59 Giulietta Spider Veloce.  He had an Elan for a short while, too- but didn't like it much.

Theoretically, the X1/9 should be the same, but the few times I have driven one, they feel a lot more raw and there's more feedback.  May not be faster, but it feels like it.  That's my brief impression if that matches you life with them.

To me, the analogy is like an Alfa Spider vs. a Miata.  The spider will never be as fast, nor is it as good of a vehicle as the Miata is.  But I find it more entertaining to drive- which is why I raced my Miata's only when the Alfa was not running- which maybe once or twice in the 13 years that I had a Miata and autocrossed very regularly.

I still think it's more about what you like more.

I daily drive an X1/9 with the original (but much modified) 1500 engine. The biggest upside to the X1/9 is the enormous luggage area. I have lived out of it for a week on the road. Some of the hot part of that gets sacrificed with a K swap, but the frunk remains. The suspension really isn't much different, both are strut at both ends. I would do another X1/9 in a heartbeat, but keep the Lampredi. A 1300cc X1/9 would be a perfect candidate for a K swap, but you still need 1500 rear hubs. The only AW11 Toyotas I have driven felt much heavier than the scales explain. I am curious about the possible weight difference between a K swapped X and my considerably lightened car.

The design/styling of the X-1/9 is timeless.  The MR2 is a dated copy of that classic Bertone styling.

That said, the MR2 is a better car (as Alfa alluded to) than the X-1/9 due to the newer engineering involved and the better parts availability.  I enjoyed the SC MR2 I got to drive briefly.  The interior feels old and not in a good way.

The X-1/9 suffers from inherent critical rust issues, an oddball wheel bolt pattern (4x98) and offset, tiny, tiny solid rotor brakes with calipers that are known problems.  Damper options are pretty much non-existant outside of OE equivalent.

Its a small and lightweight car, so it doesn't need much, but a bit more is needed today that when it was designed/built.  So look at Hondas that also carry the K-series drivetrain for donor parts.

That said, I'd choose the X with the understanding that the electrical, suspension and drivetrain will get tossed in favor of more modern/easily updated solutions.  To me, its easier to update the X to more modern driving, than backdating the styling of the MR2 to that of the X.

In reply to TurnerX19 :

The k-series weights between 409 and 413 pounds for the engine/transaxle. A quick search says the Fiat engine/transmission are in the 330 pound range, so it probably adds 80ish pounds to the car. I suspect you don't notice it when the VTEC switches over 

The later 1500 with 5 speed looks like they weigh 2,028 pounds and the AW11 MR2 are around 2282 pounds so another 250 pounds heavier. Looks like the Aw11 engine and transmisson come in around 348 pounds, So the MR2 with the same engine swap will weigh 300 pounds more than an X1/9. Definitely enough of a difference to feel the extra weight but both cars quite light compared to any modern car. I am sure there are tricks to lighten the MR2, just like there are on the X.

I'll throw sw20 into the ring. The second gen was a vastly superior car. You can still k swap. And it runs circles around both the X and the aw11 at the autocross and track. (Also, longer wheelbase ftw)

Swapping the 4AGE out for a K-series in an AW11 will free about ~70 lbs- 4As are around 340 and K20s are 270-ish. No idea on the Lampredi engines.

Both cars will need work, and the AW11 is about 200lbs heavier (the hardtop being lighter than the T-Top obviously). I think the real draw is going to be parts availability and you're ability to "make things work" from other cars- AW11s easily take other engines like the 3S series and 1MZ V6 which the Fiat cannot, can use bigger OEM brakes from later cars, can store slightly more and has a decent aftermarket. The AW11 fanbase seems to have the car well figured out now.

I've owned many copies of each and raced both.  My last race car was an ITA MR2.  Given the choice, I'd probably go X1/9.  The steering is a bit sharper and I like the driving position better.  They both can handle extremely well, but to me the Fiat is a bit better in that department.  With either, I would hit Steve Hoelscher up for suspension advice.  His are a bit unconventional, but good god do they drive well.  

In reply to dherr :

I only wish my X1/9 was 2028 when new. I weighed it, no A/C and it was 2180 with 1/2 tank of fuel. I have removed a lot, especially bumpers and cast iton exhaust stuff. I am now at 1986 with the same 1/2 tank, and there really isn't any more to remove.

In reply to Stefan :

I laugh at better parts availability for the Toyota, given how exceptionally easy and cheap it is to get bits for the X1/9. On the other hand the brakes and bolt circle are legitimate issues,

dherr said:

In reply to SVreX :

This is helpful, I know the MR2 is about 200 pounds heavier, but was not sure how much you could feel it when you drive it. 

In very light cars, you ALWAYS feel the weight difference. 

X1/9 like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=702GHDK29BM&list=PL7p27QXxP9nSUhJQDQn_JjY18vqIey8dY&index=182

I love them both, and think either would be great.

Question: Do you want Heat/AC?, or is this a bare knuckled brawler?

If yes, the obvious answer is MR2. Easier Fuel injection from the stock tank, too, vs. X1/9

The thing for me is the X is sooo pretty. The Toyota is way cool, but aaah, an Italian.

Like everyone says, build what you want. Buy on condition.

_ said:

I'll throw sw20 into the ring. The second gen was a vastly superior car. You can still k swap. And it runs circles around both the X and the aw11 at the autocross and track. (Also, longer wheelbase ftw)

The SW20 is like 500+ lbs heavier than the 1st gen. I don't think that makes a superior car unless you're into grand touring!

On the original question, while I have and love my MR2, I think the X19 wins it in the style category and if you're already more in love with the X19 then stick to what you love. Make it look like this one.

In reply to dculberson :

True, but the 3rd gen Spyder weighs less than the AW11. 

When my friend Karl and I ran nationals in 2002 with his rotary powered EM X, we weighed in at 1900 with both stock seats, 1850 with no passenger seat.  This was a '74 with full street equipment , licensed, with only the bumpers removed.  We got blown off , but expected that, we were the only entry with license plates, we just went for the experience.  That car made about 155 HP at the wheels (street ported, injected 13B), with 13x9 wheels and slicks.  It was a hoot!.  By contrast, my  personal '89 MR2, totally stock with sunroof (not T-tops) weighs more like 2380 stock.  It's pretty hard to find a slicktop Mk. 1 MR2, so the weight difference between an early X and a typical Mk 1 MR2 is going to be a good bit more than 200 pounds,  Will this be pretty much a dedicated racer, or a DD street car?

My typical build is not a DD (I have an MX5 for that) but more of a toy. So not full blown race car, but definitely a hot street car for run and autocross use. I think I found a slicktop, but will go see it this weekend. Mind is still not made up either way. I like the looks of the X1/9 better, but like the newer design of the MR2 and that fact that Toyota drivetrain upgrades are pretty easy and the k-swap is also pretty easy  (and far cheaper) verse doing the same with the X.