'You should have bought a better car'

I'm with Adrian. Simple mods are cheap and a good way to personalize your car.

I've done the big engine swaps, huge builds and I'm not interested in doing it again. I had fun with the cars but there's no denying that they were far worse street cars, had tons of compromises and cost me ALOT of money that wasn't possibly going to be recouped.

My cayenne is bone stock with the exception of a pair of exhaust pipes. The M3 is fairly well modded with bolt ons, but with a singular focus of a track car.

nderwater wrote: If you go back to the original post, the 'what car' scenario was a guy who has a $50K budget who is considering a used BRZ + tens of thousands of dollars worth of mods to make it a supar BRZ, and Matt was comparing that to guys who drop $75K into modifying their new M4s (and maybe thinking of his own broken $50,000 Fox Mustang). That's a an order of magnitude more than just modest mods to make your ride your own.

The implication is that for any particular car there is a tipping point where it just doesn't make sense to continue throwing money at it. Does anyone want to take a stab at what the tipping point formula might be?

nderwater wrote:

nderwater wrote: If you go back to the original post, the 'what car' scenario was a guy who has a $50K budget who is considering a used BRZ + tens of thousands of dollars worth of mods to make it a supar BRZ, and Matt was comparing that to guys who drop $75K into modifying their new M4s (and maybe thinking of his own broken $50,000 Fox Mustang). That's a an order of magnitude more than just modest mods to make your ride your own.

The implication is that for any particular car there is a tipping point where it just doesn't make sense to continue throwing money at it. Does anyone want to take a stab at what the tipping point formula might be?

It totally depends on your goal with the car. My rules of thumb are:

• If the car is supposed to be a reliable daily driver, then that tipping point is zero. No mods, 100% stock.
• For a fun dual-purpose street + track/autox/whatever car, it's when the mods start to degrade the manners of the car to the point that you don't want to drive it on the street any more.
• For a dedicated race car, it depends on your desire to win and the class rules limits.
• If it's just a hobby project that's just for fun/learning/etc, there isn't any such point.

These are all functional rules, not budget-based rules. Budget matters too, but it's much more dependent on one's ability and willingness to spend money than any arbitrary formula based off purchase price. I approach it with the assumption that any aftermarket parts I buy instantly depreciate to zero the moment they ship, and to negative numbers once they're bolted onto the car.

codrus wrote: I approach it with the assumption that any aftermarket parts I buy instantly depreciate to zero the moment they ship, and to negative numbers once they're bolted onto the car.

lolz

nderwater wrote:

nderwater wrote: If you go back to the original post, the 'what car' scenario was a guy who has a $50K budget who is considering a used BRZ + tens of thousands of dollars worth of mods to make it a supar BRZ, and Matt was comparing that to guys who drop $75K into modifying their new M4s (and maybe thinking of his own broken $50,000 Fox Mustang). That's a an order of magnitude more than just modest mods to make your ride your own.

The implication is that for any particular car there is a tipping point where it just doesn't make sense to continue throwing money at it. Does anyone want to take a stab at what the tipping point formula might be?

(Current amount spent + planning to spend) *1.05.

Case in point, my buddy Brandon's E38 I posted a bit of before:

Complete rebuilt S62 M5 engine swap including 6 speed manual trans, M5 diff. Lowered suspension, big brakes, custom wheels. Completely redone interior. Up 150+ hp on the stock example (450 whp vs 290 crank), Street car, not track car. Daily driveable (but probably won't due to how nice it is and wanting to keep it that way for years). Tractable, docile, fast, agile, comfortable. Ultimate E38, basically. Entire car looks factory built, but it's not. Big dollars spent and he's completely ecstatic about it. Improved on stock in every way possible. Might there have been "better" cars for the same money? Maybe. Maybe not. And definitely not as unique, nice, or, for an E38 fan, anywhere near as desirable as this car. This isn't minor cosmetic mods to make it more personal and it's nowhere near as bad as most of you "don't mod a street car" people make it out to be.

This car compares favorable to his last project, an LS 427 powered E39 5 sereis wagon that also had this level of attention to detail.

Sometimes I really think a lot of you guys really don't know what you're doing when modding cars. Either because you're doing it TOO cheap, or you're trying to build a race car out of a street car, instead of a better/more fun street car. Then when your wannabe race car is a bad street car, you think it's because it's modded at all, not because you simply made all the wrong choices during the modding process.

codrus wrote: It totally depends on your goal with the car. My rules of thumb are: - If the car is supposed to be a reliable daily driver, then that tipping point is zero. No mods, 100% stock. - For a fun dual-purpose street + track/autox/whatever car, it's when the mods start to degrade the manners of the car to the point that you don't want to drive it on the street any more. - For a dedicated race car, it depends on your desire to win and the class rules limits. - If it's just a hobby project that's just for fun/learning/etc, there isn't any such point. These are all functional rules, not budget-based rules. Budget matters too, but it's much more dependent on one's ability and willingness to spend money than any arbitrary formula based off purchase price. I approach it with the assumption that any aftermarket parts I buy instantly depreciate to zero the moment they ship, and to negative numbers once they're bolted onto the car.

I generally agree with this.

I'll often do some very light, tasteful "mods" to a commuter car. I have a Magnaflow cat and I replaced several bends and a resonator with a straight section of pipe and a single mandrel bend. But you can bet that if the exhaust droned at all, there'd be a resonator spliced in!

I even tend to preferring OE audio over aftermarket. Any OE audio made in the last 15-20 years is light-years ahead of the aftermarket. They spend a lot of time engineering the staging and other stuff over my head, that you can't get with a cheapo $300 head unit and off-the-rack speakers.

In other news, Ford 4x10 speakers are actually pretty dang good and you can buy them for $20 a pair without much searching.

codrus wrote:

nderwater wrote:

nderwater wrote: If you go back to the original post, the 'what car' scenario was a guy who has a $50K budget who is considering a used BRZ + tens of thousands of dollars worth of mods to make it a supar BRZ, and Matt was comparing that to guys who drop $75K into modifying their new M4s (and maybe thinking of his own broken $50,000 Fox Mustang). That's a an order of magnitude more than just modest mods to make your ride your own.

The implication is that for any particular car there is a tipping point where it just doesn't make sense to continue throwing money at it. Does anyone want to take a stab at what the tipping point formula might be?

It totally depends on your goal with the car. My rules of thumb are: - If the car is supposed to be a reliable daily driver, then that tipping point is zero. No mods, 100% stock. - For a fun dual-purpose street + track/autox/whatever car, it's when the mods start to degrade the manners of the car to the point that you don't want to drive it on the street any more. - For a dedicated race car, it depends on your desire to win and the class rules limits. - If it's just a hobby project that's just for fun/learning/etc, there isn't any such point. These are all functional rules, not budget-based rules. Budget matters too, but it's much more dependent on one's ability and willingness to spend money than any arbitrary formula based off purchase price. I approach it with the assumption that any aftermarket parts I buy instantly depreciate to zero the moment they ship, and to negative numbers once they're bolted onto the car.

Simply not always true, as hot rods have proven for years. Price a stock '30 Ford model A, and then a typical hot rod version. While you may not get every penny back on a hot rod build (though you can) you WILL get vastly more than stock in the same condition. As I said before, I turned a profit on my highly modded V8 RX7 after having it for 5 years.

A reliable daily driver can have modded suspension and brakes, and of course, cosmetic mods. No need to leave a car 100% stock just to be relaible My BMW is an example of that and so was my '06 Mustang GT (suspension, exhaust, wheels and tires, cosmetic and stereo mods, etc):

And that was my daily driver at the time, much like my mildly modded BMW is now.

In reply to Chris_V:

That's exactly the category I'm in (nice BMW too btw.) I like race cars but eh... I don't really have the desire to build a highly competitive car that I'll get to use 4 or 5 times a year.

I enjoy building things that have full interiors, entertain me on the street, and are competent for an occasional track night. When I show up to "race" a couple times a year I bring with me something reasonably competent and don't expect to win or even place in the top half. To me it matters that I got what I wanted, not that I got the best car offered in a price tier or built up to a tier.

Yeah, I mostly agree on audio. My FD got a Bose-ectomy (a couple of the factory Bose amps were dead), and a previous owner of my truck (2002) had already screwed up the audio system in it so I wound up replacing everything in it as well. Everything newer than that has kept the factory stereo.

Another exception is that if something wears out to the point that it needs replacement, then I'll do a street-friendly upgrade if I'm replacing it anyway. For example, the FD got a Racing Beat exhaust to replace the rusted-out factory one and an aluminum Koyo radiator to replace the leaking OEM plastic one. On my old B6 S4 (the one everyone hates for the timing chain), I replaced the upper control arms with adjustables when the bushings had worn out. That was actually a huge win, being able to add camber to the front of that car made it turn in much, much better.

Chris_V wrote: Simply not always true, as hot rods have proven for years.

It's not always true, but it's true more times than not. Assuming that it's true means that when it comes time to sell the car, you're guaranteed not to be disappointed and any residual (or even increased) value is gravy. :)

It's similar to my rule that I don't take a car out on track unless I'm willing to stuff it into a wall and walk away from it. I certainly hope never to do that, but it's far from unusual and it's better to be mentally prepared for it.

codrus wrote: Another exception is that if something wears out to the point that it needs replacement, then I'll do a street-friendly upgrade if I'm replacing it anyway.

Yes, exactly!

I only have AGX rear shocks, because OE shocks are unavailable and with 8 adjuster clicks, if the shocks are way out of whack then it is at least my fault, and not because I was bodging something in there. I tried OE front springs, ordering from Volvo by VIN, and the car sat hard on the bumpstops and actually broke one of the struts in half. So I made something work because that was the only option.

The Golf that I used to own was also tastefully "uprated" the same way by the previous owner when he was having us service it. When the brakes required replacement from the flex hoses out, he opted to have us install GTI parts. Bolts on and fits and works like OE because it was. Sway bar was also uprated to GTI spec. Stuff like that. But NO poly bushings! I was so happy when his suspension needed re-bushing and he opted for OE units. Poly bushings get sloppy fast in street use, and then they not only feel loose but they also clunk around, and clunk noises get interpreted by your brain as a rough ride. So I knew that when we repaired his car, it would be FIXED, and not be a continual headache.

He has a E30 325i that he was going to sell me a few years later, but I declined. Still kinda kicking myself over that, as he had us maintain that car to the same spec. It's a very nice stock fit and finish car with very mild uprates like IIRC a Remus muffler. But he confided in me a few years after that, that he would have really regretted selling it because he enjoys driving it so much.

That I think is the key takeaway - it is easy to go too far and make a car unpleasant to live with. Keeping near stock with only mild "uprates" preserves that easy enjoyability. And this is exactly why I do not want to modify my latest RX-7 very far and actually return some of the existing modifications to stock. I already have one car that I modified to the point where it's not quite pleasant to live with anymore, I want something with stock suspension and stock ports and maybe even yank the header off and go with the stock exhaust manifold because it's not actually worth any power and the manifold is quieter...

@chris_V on the subject of "Tom1200 is flat wrong" yes it's true I like anchovie pizza, there is said it and I don't care who knows. As long as we're pointing fingers; you've shown picture after picture of well thought out, planned and executed project cars that work flawlessly..........really who does that? Where are the driveablitly issues, the litany of CEL codes?

When I said "want a car like no one else's keep it stock" I was only half serious but there is a ring of truth to it. Think 240SX, M3, S2000 & RX7. There are just some cars that seem to be rare in stock form.

Now as for my comments I did say "here is where I'm at" and the original post asked for an opinion. I'm just wired that if someone says there spending 5K my brain sees 5K = vintage Formula Vee, 10K regional Spec or Super Miata, 20K = Lotto O'Race Cars; Formula Ford, D-Sports Racer, GT-Lite and a bunch of others.

I actually love modified cars. I think low riders are uber cool, they are almost completely useless and again I'd never have one as you can buy a cool race car. Long ago when I worked as a Toyota mechanic we had a customer at the dealership who had retrofitted a Cressida with a whole host of Supra parts. When me son finishes college that would be something I'd love to do but alas he'll likely want to go vintage racing and so that budget will get devoured running both the Datsun and F500 at vintage race weekends.

People should do whatever makes them happy with their car but the inner me won't understand why they didn't spend that money on a race car. It's the same thing as why I can't comprehend why any one eats at that place I've disdainfully nick named the Giardinara O-Lee-Vay (if your especially if your Grandmother makes homemade pasta) Again totally my opinion.

Tom1200 wrote: @chris_V on the subject of "Tom1200 is flat wrong" yes it's true I like anchovie pizza, there is said it and I don't care who knows. As long as we're pointing fingers; you've shown picture after picture of well thought out, planned and executed project cars that work flawlessly..........really who does that? Where are the driveablity issues, the litany of CEL codes?

How do you get a CEL from a sway bar or mild lowering springs, huh? Or wider wheels? Or a cat back exhaust? You don't and they don't affect driveability negatively if you choose even slightly wisely. I don't have CELs on my mild BMW and there are no CELs on that S62 one. None on my Mustang, and the RX7 was way too early for those things, lol! Again it comes back to I don't think you guys know HOW to mod cars correctly. And so you think no one can.

You guys are car guys. You can figure it out if you're not so focused on building a wannabe race car out of your daily driver. Who does that? All it takes is the knowledge of cars and what your car actually needs to improve it from the stock compromise. For my 740i, I know that the engine doesn't need any more tweaking for daily driver duties, but the suspension could use a rear sway bar and from experience I know that the H&R Stage II springs on this car lower it a bit but still ride fantastic. So I'll add those two things and the suspension will be done. Then it'll have all the comfort of the stock car, but improved looks and handling. Could I have bought a Formula VEE for what I have in it? Of course. That would require me wanting a Formula Vee, however.

When I said "want a car like no one else's keep it stock" I was only half serious but there is a ring of truth to it. Think 240SX, M3, S2000 & RX7. There are just some cars that seem to be rare in stock form.

Well, when I built my RX7 it was in '93 when it was just an old secretary's car. But interestingly there's a pair of non running examples on my local CL right now for under $1000 each, so they still aren't rare or valuable in stock form. I could duplicate my old car for under $5k now with that and can't BUY anything that matches it for anywhere NEAR that.

$700 total into this car and it was a daily driver for 2 years. Rode like stock and reliable as stock (considering it was 30 years old at the time, it was pretty good):

It was never going to be a race car, so why even bother, when it can be a cool, fun street car instead.

Now as for my comments I did say "here is where I'm at" and the original post asked for an opinion. I'm just wired that if someone says there spending 5K my brain sees 5K = vintage Formula Vee, 10K regional Spec or Super Miata, 20K = Lotto O'Race Cars; Formula Ford, D-Sports Racer, GT-Lite and a bunch of others.

Sure, then you'd have nothing to drive on the street. And you'd have to have a trailer, a place to store them and a truck to tow them. And it comes down to this: why does every car have to be a race car or a wannabe race car? That's the kind of BS that makes you make bad choices in street cars, and end up thinking that modding them at all is bad.

I actually love modified cars. I think low riders are uber cool, they are almost completely useless and again I'd never have one as you can buy a cool race car.

I've had race cars. No need to make every goddamn car a race car. I typically drive on the street VASTLY more often than on a track, so I think optimizing the street car for fun is just as important. But that's just me. I'm open minded to owning/building all sorts of cars. And I have (over 130 of them in the last 38 years. Oh, and BTW, I've only ever LOST money on stock vehicles. Never on any of the modded ones.)

I've had race cars AND lowriders AND hot rods AND mildly modded street cars. You can have both or at least know enough not say that modding a stock vehicle is bad because it's not 100% race car.

People should do whatever makes them happy with their car but the inner me won't understand why they didn't spend that money on a race car.

Again, I've had race cars, Not every car needs to be a race car. It's good to see you know your limitations, but when you say things like for 100% reliability and drivability you must leave the car 100% stock, you're factually wrong, and it appears you don't want to actually learn anything. The classic definition of closed mindedness. And that's not really something to be proud of.

For the record, I don't think either Matt or Todd (from Everyday Driver) is saying to not mod your car. Matt clearly mods most of his rides, to include his [most recently acquired] Focus RS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzx1OGZjgik

^^^With less than 5k miles on the ticker, Matt has put an intake, intercooler, some SSB brake lines and a tune on his Focus RS.

Same with Todd from Everyday Driver:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bhnMYvn5S4&index=2&list=PLHxU7q4gi5_sFJCSzL7x5zPsz4WxzuKgd

^^^Todd has modded his personal Scion FR-S with a header, exhaust, a tune and a set of aftermarket wheels/tires.

Based on their actions, I think both of these guys see the value in simple bolt-ons and customization. I subscribe to both of these channels and from the countless One Take's I've seen with Matt, it would appear that he's enjoyed some well done modified vehicles; his drives in an EF Civic Si hatch, the Exocet, a S/C'd Miata, 400hp FD RX-7, a 2JZ Datsun 260Z and a few others come to mind. However, with the amount of cash invested into some of these cars, I think he's saying for the money, he would rather just have a turn-key OEM sports car that is better put together, well sorted from the factory and easier to live with.

I think what these guys are saying isn't to avoid modding your car altogether. But there is a point where you're likely better served by buying a more expensive engineering effort to begin with. At least for a street car.

Full blown race car, different story. If you're gutting the car, putting in a stiff suspension, a roll cage and throwing away most of the stock parts anyway, it likely makes more sense to modify a cheaper car than it does "ruining" a high end sports car.

The same can be said for cars built to run in a specific class/series. Although, I would still classify most of those cars as more "race car" than "street car".

On a street car, simple bolt-ons to customize your car make sense. But at a certain point, it becomes difficult to justify to some people; myself included. When you start doubling the power output of your engine, but the rest of the powertrain wasn't engineered to take the extra power, it might be an expensive endeavor to re-engineer everything to take the extra load. When you're throwing in forged internals, head work, custom cams, etc and then you're dropping extra cash on beefing up the cooling system, running a stiffer/heavier clutch, a more robust differential/transmission, thicker half shafts... and all in a chassis that was never designed to put down the extra power. Sure, you can stiffen the chassis with bracing, run a better damped suspension, run wider wheels/tires with flared fenders, etc.....

But at some point, it might just make more sense to buy a car that was engineered to take the extra load from the factory. Where the OEM engineers have already addressed reliability concerns and beefed up the chassis and drivetrain accordingly.

I ran into a similar issue when I was still in the military ~13 years ago. I threw a bunch of money/parts at a WRX I owned rather than just buying an STI. I ended up with a couple of destroyed clutches, I seared the teeth off of 2nd gear and finally ended up with a cracked ringland on cylinder #4 before selling the car. For the money I spent modding that car, I could've just bought an STI that came with a bigger motor, bigger turbo, stronger engine internals, a better suspension, wider wheels/tires and a much more robust drivertrain/transmission/clutch. For the record, I did all of my own wrenching and had the car professionally tuned by a reputable shop... but in the end, since I was throwing away perfectly good OEM parts, it still would have been cheaper to have just bought the more focused, OEM built STI. Very similar experience to the 323i to M3 conversion mentioned earlier in this thread. Lesson learned.

I don't think they're saying not to modify your car. I think they're against spending 2-3 times the amount you pay for your (new-ish) sports car on modifying it when there are better alternatives out there for the money. Letting the OEM's eat the engineering costs and save you money through mass production and not having to throw away perfectly good OEM parts.

I see a lot of this in the Subaru and Evo communities. Newer cars that are mainly street cars with built engines, big turbos etc... 500whp, $30k invested. I don't know that I would want to drop $60-80k on an economy car that goes like stink but isn't up to half an hour of lapping. A M3 would be a way nicer street car. People also reference the "scene" and "game" a lot. I think part of it is ego, community, etc. Forum signature mod lists seem to bear this out.

turtl631 wrote: I see a lot of this in the Subaru and Evo communities. Newer cars that are mainly street cars with built engines, big turbos etc... 500whp, $30k invested. I don't know that I would want to drop $60-80k on an economy car that goes like stink but isn't up to half an hour of lapping. A M3 would be a way nicer street car. People also reference the "scene" and "game" a lot. I think part of it is ego, community, etc. Forum signature mod lists seem to bear this out.

Agreed.

I think it's easy to tumble down the rabbit hole sometimes. From my previous experience ~13 years ago, I fell into a similar situation. You start with an exhaust/intake and maybe a tune... and you want more. Bigger intercooler... maybe some bigger injectors/fuel pump and an E85 tune... then the bigger turbo starts to look appealing, along with the long list of needed supporting mods. Before you know it, you're pushing 50-75% more power than stock and upgrading your drivetrain to take the power....

Then you realize with all the extra power, the car is no longer "balanced". In come the wider wheels/tires... then the stiffer suspension... camber plates and custom alignment to dial everything in...

Then you realize with the added power and suspension, your brakes aren't up to the task... you start with pads/lines/fluid, but the mod bug hits and you now have a set of aftermarket calipers, brake ducting, etc...

You start hitting the track, and soon it hits you: you can't keep the car cool enough to push it hard for very long. In comes the bigger radiator, the oil cooler, vented everything, etc.

Of course you start to worry about your baby, so baffled oil pans, accusumps, etc start making their way into the picture. Along with the host of interior gauges to keep an eye on what's going on.

You start to get everything dialed in and realize the OEM seats and seat belts don't hold you well... onto racing buckets and harnesses.

Along the way, your daily driven "street car" becomes less and less reliable... it's stiffer, louder, less comfortable and more temperamental. Before you know it, you've sank tens of thousands of dollars into your preferred version of boost buggy/tuner car (Subaru/EVO/etc) and it hits you: for the money you spent, you could have bought a Corvette Z06, a Nissan GTR or a Cayman/Boxster/911. All of which are more or less just as fast, more comfortable, significantly more reliable, more refined and just as fun to drive on the right road/track.

The only real downside to the more upscale sports car is additional maintenance/repair costs (I'm looking at you, Porsche). However, fully built boost buggies come with their own added maintenance costs, so I'd call it a wash.

It's an easy hole to fall into. One that I don't care to go down again.

Side note: I remember reading the Car and Driver 4-cylinder shootout article Keith mentioned from 2003:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/superfour-challenge-comparison-tests

^^^Very eye opening to say the least.

My view: Simple bolt-ons to adjust a street car to your liking? Go for it. A full, extensive build where you're spending 2-3 times the value of the car on something you plan to drive on the street? You might consider at least driving a more expensive, better engineered car to begin with...

Chris_V wrote: How do you get a CEL from a sway bar or mild lowering springs, huh? Or wider wheels? Or a cat back exhaust? You don't and they don't affect driveability negatively if you choose even slightly wisely.

I have never driven a lowered car that had remotely acceptable drivability. Cars should not canter and crashing into the bumpstops when you hit a frost heave or pothole is unacceptable.

@Chris V you completely misunderstand what I'm saying; we are mostly on the same page, thought for sure the Anchovie Pizza comment would make it apparent I'm being facetious

First on the race car comments; I don't mod my street cars because I'd rather spend the money on racing. I too see cheap street cars for $1000 that another $3000 would make them very cool but I'd rather go to 3 or 4 extra events with that money. That's simply my mind set. I will also say that going car racing is likely the dumbest way ever to spend money. I manage it cheap but I'm still spending 2-3k every year for a car I drive 5 times a year versus I could have spent the money on a cool car that would get used 50-60 times a year. Whenever I have to get my physical done for my race license, even after 30 years, I laugh at the line on the form that says "subject should be of sound mind" this would eliminate 95% of the people racing.

We are 100% in agreement that some people don't know what there doing and make a hash up of modding their car. This is why I have a fabricator because I know I'm a hack. Sure I can bolt stuff on and repair most mechanical things but I shouldn't be allowed to make parts.

Again when I see modded cars, especially well done ones, I think that's really cool but the evil little voice in the back of my head starts adding up the money subtracted to the race budget. I find race cars cooler than street cars. Doesn't make me right or them wrong or vice versa.

Finally I'm not saying anything other than 100% stock is bad or will be unreliable but as you pointed out we all see a lot of cars done poorly. Very often they look nice but don't drive so nice and don't hold up well because some loose nut worked on the car. If someone wants to pour 40k making the worlds fastest Yugo and it makes them happy great. I'll think they're nuts and they'll think what an idiot for spending all that time on a car that I'm going to flog the snot out of.........and we'll both be right.

Tom

roninsoldier83 wrote: I threw a bunch of money/parts at a WRX... For the money I spent modding that car, I could've just bought an STI

And that is just considering purchase price. Look at resale - STi's held their value incredibly well. I bought a new STi in 2003 for $29K and sold it 12 years later for $17K. My cost was $1K per year plus consumables. I was extremely happy with that experience (I guess I was one of the lucky ones w/o engine issues).

Funny all these references to the Z06. I took that $17K and bought a C5 Z06 which I'm refreshing as a fun track day car. Pretty much all stock except a minor upgrade to C6 Z06 brakes. Stock parts are so inexpensive... rotors are $50, shocks are $60. No turbos to worry about. Really the only big ticket item is 285/35-18 tires. I'm pretty sure my driving skills can't exceed a stock C5Z... and you can get them in the teens... so I don't see the point of throwing $10K+ in mods at anything. Well, maybe you could avoid the crappy 90's GM interior... but I'm willing to deal with that. Even on the STi I had to go through all the interior panels/clips and lube/silicon them to get rid of all the squeaks/rattles. Worked fine for a decade.

jv8 wrote:

roninsoldier83 wrote: I threw a bunch of money/parts at a WRX... For the money I spent modding that car, I could've just bought an STI

And that is just considering purchase price. Look at resale - STi's held their value incredibly well. I bought a new STi in 2003 for $29K and sold it 12 years later for $17K. My cost was $1K per year plus consumables. I was extremely happy with that experience (I guess I was one of the lucky ones w/o engine issues).

True enough. Shortly after selling my WRX, I had a 2006 STI for a few years. Just a better place to start if you want a higher performance car. Plenty of problems with my WRX. No real problems to speak of with my STI, other than the bouncy seats/"bobblehead" factor and rattly interior bits.

These days I have 2 cars in the garage (not counting the bike and the wife's non-performance driven/daily driver 2016 WRX)- a 2016 VW Golf R (daily) and a 2007 Honda S2000 (weekend/playtoy).

The Golf R is bone stock, other than having 2 sets of wheels & tires (summer and winter). I know they have absolutely massive gains with just a tune, but I honestly love the car in stock form and don't want to deal with "modding issues". It's going to stay stock.

The S2000 is pretty close to stock. I've replaced all the fluids; I put in ATE brake fluid in the brakes/clutch, higher temp differential fluid, etc. Also did the "UK spec" alignment. The only "hard parts" I put on the car were stainless steel brake lines, upgraded brake pads, a bigger FSB, an oil cooler and an oil temp gauge. Brakes lines just because it's a 10 year old car that sees track time and I prefer not to take chances with 10 year old rubber- more or less just peace of mind. Brake pads because track days. A bigger FSB to help tame the rear end on track. The oil cooler/oil temp gauge in order to keep oil temps down on the track and make sure they don't get too high.

Essentially, my S2000 drives just like stock. It can just be pushed harder, for longer. No plans on doing anything to the S2000. At least not until I can really sort out the weakest link- the driver.

roninsoldier83 wrote: These days I have 2 cars in the garage (not counting the bike and the wife's non-performance driven/daily driver 2016 WRX)- a 2016 VW Golf R (daily) and a 2007 Honda S2000 (weekend/playtoy).

Ha - I also daily a bone stock 2016 Golf R. It's where STi drivers go when they grow up :-) To be fair I had done minor mods to address the STi issues you mentioned.

I'd also be with you on the S2000 except there is no way I physically fit in those things. So it's C5Z for me.

jv8 wrote: Ha - I also daily a bone stock 2016 Golf R. It's where STi drivers go when they grow up :-) I'd also be with you on the S2000 except there is no way I physically fit in those things. So it's C5Z for me.

Ha! I would say that sounds about right.

I drove several cars before buying my S2000, including the C5Z- wild ride! I had a lot of fun in the C5Z I drove, but a few things kept me from buying one: the biggest being the lack of a removable roof. My last weekend/playtoy car was a Mazdaspeed Miata, and I really didn't want to lose the drop-top option. Especially on a nice sunny day here in the Colorado canyons/mountains.

I'm around 6'2" 210 lbs, 33" waist, 34" in-seam and am very snug inside the S2000. I'm comfortable, but if I were much bigger, it might have been a problem.

I never think of it as moving up-town, but rather making my own statement. At that point, I will spend $$$ as long as it feels good.

Wonder where you would put the FM ND V8 conversion since it is an 80k Miata?

Keith Tanner wrote: As I stated earlier, I don't think the dollar category matters. The question is just as relevant at the $10k level as it is at the $150k level - although it's more obvious when you're looking at new cars vs modified old ones. The thing is, it's actually really hard to beat the OEs at their own game when they unshackle their engineers. It can be done, but you can't do it by picking parts at random out of a catalog.

Keith as usual is pretty much on the nose here. Its hard to beat the OEM stuff even when you go way way up the chain for aftermarket parts. IE 10-15K moton//penskie suspensions that are not very happy being used on the street.

Bottom line is most people who modify cars do not take a holistic view of the build and end up seriously compromised. The FRS in the video is actually really well done for a tuner car. All the parts are of good quality, they all match the end goal of the build and they were installed correctly. IE It's not a 600hp dyno queen with no brakes.

Lets say he lost 30K in the build on the car to depreciation. He put 35K miles on it. Lets say a 1.10$ a mile with gas and insurance. That is NOTHING in the grand scheme of things. Yes he could have leased a 550i or something for the three years that he had it for the same money but different strokes. I don;t see the big deal here.