3 Way Light Switch Issues

So I had a switch die on me.  You could tell it was not switching when you moved the switch. I go to replace it and when I pull the switch out of the  wall I find there are two sets of wires coming in to the back to the switch one is the normal white and black and the other is red white and black.  Ok this is normal as it is a three way circuit.  BUT two black wires going to the common (black screw) and two white wires going to one of the other silver/copper screws and a red going to the other copper / silver screw on the switch.  

The WTF radar is now kicking in as I have never seen two wires being connected to the same pole on a switch (I don't think it is legal) so I pull the other switch and it is wired with the red to to common and the black and the white to the two silver / copper screws.

So I am like ok I don't understand this but it worked before the switch died (and did so for the last 50 years so just replace it in kind with another single pole 3 way switch and all should be good.  I just have to make sure that I keep the wires to the same color screws taking particular car to make sure I keep the common the same.

So I do that and now the switch at the bottom of the stairs will turn the light on and off but if I turn it off the switch at the top of the stairs can not turn it on and off.   In short the wiring is now FUBAR.  

I suspect that the screws in the switch I removed were not correct for there location.  It is a Leviton single pole three way switch BUT the screws are on the top and bottom of the switch not on the sides like normal ones.  It is also does not have provisions for grounding.  I have never seen one like this before.  On the top of the switch the screw closest to the front of the switch is black (I assume it is the common)  there is a brass screw behind it.  In the bottom of the switch there is another brass screw in line with the one on the top.  It is labeled
"Leviton singe pole 3 way switch Cat No. 260 10A 125V 5A 250V"

Any help on this would be great.  What I am trying not to do it start over.  I could take out both switches and the light and disconnect the switches.  If there are multiple lines to the light then I will have to disconnect the light and start over by finding the power supply line and then back tracing all the other wires.

Anyone have any suggestions?

I tried looking up Leviton 260 but did not find anything with that number. If you have two switches controlling the light(s) you need a three way switch. A single pole is for just one switch controlling a light. The wiring as you describe it sounds odd. Are you sure the white wires were connected to the switch. There are a bunch of ways to wire a three way switch and some of them are weird. Typically the black from the two wire cable (black and white) would go on the common, the black and red (from the three wire cable) would go to the other two screws and the whites would splice together.

If the wiring was all connected to the switch you replaced and working before then it is probably as simple as switching where the black and the red are connected to the other switch. These wires are called the travelers and if they get reversed then one switch will work fine and the other will only work when the other switch is in a particular position. Good luck, I think you just need to switch those two wires on the switch you didn't change. Both blacks should be on the common.

I looked for the 260 as well. Never seen one like it before. It looks like it would be used in a box that has multiple switches in it to keep the wire screws on the top and bottom away from each other.  I will mess with the wiring more tomorrow.  Thanks for the post!!!!!

I always find it best to draw out the circuit, then look at what you have and figger it out at that point.  Is the bottom switch the same as the bad top one?  Take the DVM to the good one and draw out what does what.  Then you can match the new switch to the circuit.  Does the bad top one actually test out bad with your DVM? That is, is there a wiring problem going on here?

Imgon has it right. You've just got the travelers reversed. Switch them and you should be fine. 

imgon said:

If the wiring was all connected to the switch you replaced and working before then it is probably as simple as switching where the black and the red are connected to the other switch. These wires are called the travelers and if they get reversed then one switch will work fine and the other will only work when the other switch is in a particular position. Good luck, I think you just need to switch those two wires on the switch you didn't change. Both blacks should be on the common.

This is exactly the problem. What is the worst that can happen?  I pop a fuse. . . .

Dr. Hess said:

I always find it best to draw out the circuit, then look at what you have and figger it out at that point.  Is the bottom switch the same as the bad top one?  Take the DVM to the good one and draw out what does what.  Then you can match the new switch to the circuit.  Does the bad top one actually test out bad with your DVM? That is, is there a wiring problem going on here?

Nope the bottom switch is an old single button push button switch from the early 60's the top one that went bad is newer probably circa 1980's or early 90's .  Yes it definitely went bad I checked it for continuity and it failed.  I took it apart and a piece of plastic had broken off in the housing and was jamming the mechanize keeping it from working.

Ok. . ..   I changed the wiring on the bottom switch so the red and the white were on the carriers and the black is on the common and now things are reversed.  I can turn the light on and off from the bottom and from the top if the light is off. If the light is turned on at the bottom then the top switch has no control of the light.  

So on to plan B.   Move the white to the common and the black to to the carrier?  

And the result is the light stayed on no matter what you do with either switch.   So I think it is time to draw out a schematic and open the light up and see what wiring is going on up there as well.

What this really tells me is that the switch down low was wired corectly and the one at the top of the stairs is not.  So I put it back to the way it was 

It worked before. 

There are only 4 ways it can go together. ABC, ACB, BCA, and BAC.

CAB and CBA don't count- you've got a power leg swapped with a traveler. Since there are 2 travelers, they are interchangeable. 

Youve already tested 2 possible options. Only 2 left. 

UNLESS, you mixed up the wires that were originally tied together. Then, it's a little more work. 

SVreX said:

It worked before. 

There are only 4 ways it can go together. ABC, ACB, BCA, and BAC.

CAB and CBA don't count- you've got a power leg swapped with a traveler. Since there are 2 travelers, they are interchangeable. 

Youve already tested 2 possible options. Only 2 left. 

UNLESS, you mixed up the wires that were originally tied together. Then, it's a little more work. 

Did not switch how they were tied together I did it one terminal at a time between the two switches.

So at the moment this is where I am.

I took both switches out and off the wall.  The lower switch only has red white and black wires in the box in one line.  

The upper switch has two lines one has red, white and black the other just red and white

I tested continuity between lines that have  red, white and black at the two switches.  It There is continuity between these wires so they connect directly BUT I don't know if the light is between them.  I will have to take the light out to look what wiring is in there.

I am going to turn on the power and make sure that there is only power comming in on the line at the upper box that is only a white and a black.

So where do I go from here? 

I am wondering if power is coming form the light

I am betting that the power goes to the light and the white comming on to the box in the two line wire is hot not the black I am going to check this now.

And I think I am correct.  Incoming power is white to the upper switch meaning that the power comes in to the light above then down to the switch.  Going to swap the white to the common and the black to the carrier on the top switch and I think that should do it.  We will see.

An no go so I put the power t the com on the lower switch and there is still a leg wrong.

That is the way I normally see three ways done. Mine I thaught was like this the switch closest to the light is at the top of the stairs and the switch on the right at the bottom of the stairs. I tried writing it this way but it did not work.  How I found it wasinstead of the black wires bypassing the first switch they were connected to the common on the first switch With both whites to one runner and the red to the other runner.  The switch on the bottom of the stairs had the red to the common and the white and the black to the runners.  

BUT it is not working. I think I am going to toss all the switches in the trash and get new ones. I am now suspecting that the ones I had in my electric stuff drawer were bad.  I cheached continuity on them and they seemed good but I don't remember where I got them so I think it best to get a couple quality ones not the .79$ ones and start over with known good new switches. I think I am also going to drop the fixture to make sure that what I think is going on with the wiring is indeed.  If this does not work I am going to call an electrician as I also want to install a generator lock out on my main brakes and have them run a line out side from my box (about 4 feet away from my box) to plug in my generator. 

Hey Dean,

I could trade some electrical work for some welding work on my TII RX-7. By the way how old is the wiring in this house? People did some strange crap in the past, and actually still do. I've seen some crazy stuff in my limited time in the industry. Imgon, has seen way more than I have.

Sounds like a plan Chris