A personal question, how much do you make, but not really.

Appleseed said:

mtn said:

Datsun310Guy said:

In reply to Steve_Jones :

There's always been 2 philosophies of business. I imagine more than 2.

1.  People are lazy - don't want to work.  Whip them to get work done or they'll screw off all day.

2. People are hard workers - provide a good workplace and they will work really hard for you and do extra without being asked. 

I've seen #2 turn into #1 because of bad leadership. It is like a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

People don't leave bad jobs, they leave bad bosses.

This. I loved the job. I really did. But I could not survive under the new/old management. 

In reply to Toyman! :

I did a very similar thing with my nephew. He and a friend are living in one of the houses I own at a very reduced rental rate. About 60% of market right now. I told him that he has to have a plan to stay there.

Well, he just got a job as lead parts counter guy at the large Ford dealer in town and is going to school to get certified for a few types of welding and CNC. So I'm giving him 2 years to get school done and get his feet under him. Honestly, I'm very happy for him. He is taking the job/school seriously and seems to really like what he is doing. 

Being the boss sucks some times. . . ..  

In reply to dean1484 :

Yes it does.

In 7 years, my base pay has only gone up about 12%. There have been RSU's, but that's harder to calculate since depending on when they vest and the stock price at the time, determines what they end up being worth. 

In the last 10 years we have averaged 2.5% pay compensation increase.  Although last 2 years has been 6-7% just trying to keep up with competitive pay. Still feel like we are on the lower side of the current competitive pay.  In the same period we have maintained the health insurance for our full time workforce and that has increased at a rate of almost 12% per year.  

Being the boss is hard. Had a customer tell me it wasn't my fault recently that the company had to raise his price so much.  He didn't believe me when I said it was directly my fault because I made that decision and it is my family owned company. (yes, nepotism is real)

My comp bounces around because I'm in sales, with a 70/30 base/incentive pay split. Here's what my on target #s look like:

2019 - hired in Oct

2020 - 0% (Covid freeze)

2021 - 4.1%
2022 - 4%
2023 - 3.4%

I feel like that's been pretty fair. Again, I have a lot of variation on the incentive side, so that impacts my pay far more than my overall target salary number. Benefits have been exceptional, so I'm thankful for that.

We've had a freeze on raises and promotions in place this year.

The timing irks me, because I've exceeded expectations for the past two years. It was a lucky confluence of projects and the ability to step up and shine that doesn't happen all of the time. My director said he'd put in for a promotion if he could, because I've shown the ability to work a level above where I am, even though it's not my normal responsibility to do so.

I'm hoping his memory is long enough to remember that once the freeze is lifted next year. 

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) :

I think you are seeing a lot of that this year because of the uncertainty in the economy. As a business owner, it makes me want to pile up cash as fast as I can because cash is what gets all of us through the tough times. When COVID hit and everything came to a screeching halt, cash is what kept everyone paid. I managed to keep everyone on the payroll and fed solely because I had the cash on hand to do so. There were several months during that mess when I didn't get paid because I determined that keeping the team together was more important to me than drawing a salary. 

In reply to Toyman! :

I understand all of that. Understanding why it's happening doesn't put more money into my pocket, which is what a promotion or raise would do. 

I get that I'm selling my skills and finite lifespan for currency I use to buy goods and services.  They expect me to perform to standard X for however many hours a week it takes to get the work done.  My job is to get as much money/benefit  out of them as I can for doing that work. 

When that relationship stops being advantageous to me, because they expect more from me for the same compensation or less, I'll look for somewhere else to work. Right now, inflation is making it so they are effectively paying me less every day for the work I'm already doing. 

It hasn't reached that point yet where I'm ready to bail out, but the way upper management is approaching some things isn't sitting well with me.  I'm going to watch which way the wind blows for a bit. If I leave, they won't care *too* much in the long term, because it's a big company with thousands of employees. 

Edit to add: I also understand that the larger business has to manage things so they make a profit, and plan far enough into the future that they continue to do so. The organization exists to make money, not keep employees happy. However, making money hasn't exactly been a problem so far.

Thru 2007-2008 the small hose shop I worked for struggled thru the economy but we never got our salary's cut.  The owner froze raises and gave out a $1-$3000 bonus in a good year.  I was grateful to have a job but I made it clear I was there to make money.  

The incentives were frozen for 5 years so in 2013 I gave my notice.  First question;

is there anything we can do make you stay?

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) :

And that is why I gave raises last week. 

My job is to find that happy medium to keep everyone happy. Knowing that inflation hurts I did what I thought I could afford to help with that. 

It's is a fine line to walk and probably why I keep a bottle of tums handy. 

I guess for me my raises have been okay depending on who's in office. Getting higher rank helps if you can pull that off. 

I just know I do 100% of the same work as the guy next to me (same clearance, same education, more experience) + the extra BS that Uncle Sam asks of me. If I were to take off the uniform today and do his job, I'd be making 300-400k a year while doing 30% less work and adding 100% more stability for my family. I have 3 years and change before my income multiplies by at least 3.5. And Big Unc wonders why we have a recruiting and retention problem 

Before becoming an RN in summer I was a Paramedic and "Cardiac Technologist". I was only making $22.06/hr; EMS outside of 911 makes nothing.

As a nurse I'm now making ~$36.00 and I might be getting a hospital-wide raise this fall. My facility, to maintain recruitment and workforce tries to overpay while also providing higher than average benefits for it's workforce (other facilities would have started me closer to $27-28) while also demanding bachelors. The problem however, is that we're an ICU so the work and criticality is higher than some are willing to deal with.

My situation is pretty unusual. Because I never had the confidence or focus to really commit to a formal education when I was young, I ended up starting all over, went back to school, and became a fortysomething intern seven years ago. They offered me a permanent position there and I have been there ever since.

My hourly pay has roughly doubled over those seven years. One inflation calculator shows an average of 3.5% annually over that time; adjusted for inflation, my doubled wage is around a 60% increase in spending power. It's kind of like a 3.5% COL adjustment plus a 7% (EDIT: I initially miscalculated this at 5%) bump every year.

We also get annual bonuses that are based on corporate profitability. Those bonuses have been anywhere from a few hundred in my first year to the equivalent of six weeks' pay in a banner year. And there are things like (relatively modest) IRA contributions and increased vacation time that help keep seasoned employees motivated.

I'm damned fortunate. I am valued. My employer works hard to make sure I know that.

Toyman! said:

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) :

I think you are seeing a lot of that this year because of the uncertainty in the economy. As a business owner, it makes me want to pile up cash as fast as I can because cash is what gets all of us through the tough times. When COVID hit and everything came to a screeching halt, cash is what kept everyone paid. I managed to keep everyone on the payroll and fed solely because I had the cash on hand to do so. There were several months during that mess when I didn't get paid because I determined that keeping the team together was more important to me than drawing a salary. 

I went a year with no pay and put 200k in to my company to keep everyone employed for not really doing a whole lot. Cash is king. I need to build the company's Rainey day fund and my own cash reserves before I start handing out bonuses.   It is a gamble I took that should pay off but when I am asked about a raise or a performance bonus I think back to the months of me paying people out of my pocket for them to not really be working.  
 

And people wonder why I am jaded when it comes to raises and stuff. Next time I think the employees should work for months with out getting paid. .. ..  ..  Ya like that is going to happen.   
 

People really need to be more financially responsible. I get the feeling that some employees think we as company owners have a unlimited supply of money. It is just not that way. Before Covid I was lucky to be able to give good bonuses to people and have what I thought was a good size cash reserve in the company.  Obviously I was a little short but because I have been responsible  with personal money I could make it work.  
 

Being the Boss/Owner is a thankless job.  Retirement lookes better and better every year.

In reply to Toyman! :

As a business owner, you've got much more leeway to run the business the way you see fit than a large corporation beholden to shareholders and special interests.

You're doing well by your employees.

In reply to dean1484 :

You had $200K to put into the business AFTER 52 week with no pay. I think that makes your situation very different from your employees. You think if they were financially responsible they'd have $200K to drop after a year without pay?  
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but you do. As the business owner you take the largest risk, and if done correctly, you reap the largest reward. That's the way it should be. But those rewards don't come as a result of just your efforts. Those financially irresponsible employees of yours had a hand in it. You pumping money into YOUR business is just the cost of retaining the assets you have to secure YOUR future.
Good on you for doing that. If the employees know that, I guarantee they will work harder for you, and they will be loyal to you. That is, unless they know you actually feel about them.

In reply to toyman!:
As others have said, you seem like a great person to work for. I'm assuming you don't tell your people what you do for them, but I also assume your nature comes out in how you treat them on a day-to-day basis. That's why you have a loyal team and are successful. A good business owner/employer understand who makes them successful. It's not just him/her, it's not just the employees. It's the team as a whole.

DrBoost said:

In reply to dean1484 :

You had $200K to put into the business AFTER 52 week with no pay. I think that makes your situation very different from your employees. You think if they were financially responsible they'd have $200K to drop after a year without pay?  

I read that as he did not take a paycheck, so there was $200k extra in the business to keep it above water. The other option was tell everyone they don't have a job. I have no clue how that makes him a jerk? Like you pointed out, he was stable, he could have said screw them, I got mine, and bailed.

How long would you work with no pay? You somehow have it twisted that he was "lucky" he could do that, no idea how you got there though. I'd say they were lucky he decided to pay them instead of closing.

In reply to Steve_Jones :

Never said he was lucky. You said that I said he was lucky, even putting it in quotation marks. Where did I say or insinuate that? That kind of success only happens with hard work and skills, abilities, and knowledge/wisdom I don't have. But it was the 'financially responsible' comment that got me. He's either talking about his employees, or the rest of us that don't have 200 large in liquid assets that we can drop. He does, partly because of the hard work that his folks put in. Maybe he thinks that those of us who are effected by cost of living increases are financially irresponsible. Not sure. But he thinks the employees should work with no pay next time the company they don't own has a tough time. Wow. Just wow.

And yes, he could have told them they didn't have a job. Would the company have folded? Maybe, I don't know the company or the business. But most businesses that don't trade for a year are done. I see that all around me right now. LOTS of businesses suffered structural damage to their buildings after Hurricaine Ian. Many of them are still waiting on insurance payouts. Most of those have been closed permanently for months now because they are unable to do business. It's been almost a year to the day. He made that cash infusion to keep his livelihood around for his future. That's good for him and his employees. 

How long would I work without pay? Depends on how well I was paid before that. If I was paid well enough to have $200,000 to drop after a year with no pay AND I was vested in the business so I knew I'd make it all back and then some when business picked up I sure would/could work for a while with no pay. But since that figure reflects a few years of my net pay, I'm unable to do that. Must be all that financial irresponsibility.
 

In reply to Steve_Jones :

The part about how his employees wouldn't work a year without pay.  No, they wouldn't. They probably don't have the means to, if they did they might have already gone to work for themselves.  Few people are employees because they want to be, but because they need to pay bills. 

In reply to DrBoost :

Try cutting back on fancy coffee and avecodo toast. 

In reply to DrBoost :

In reply to Steve_Jones :

Never said he was lucky. You said that I said he was lucky, even putting it in quotation marks. Where did I say or insinuate that? That kind of success only happens with hard work and skills, abilities, and knowledge/wisdom I don't have. But it was the 'financially responsible' comment that got me. He's either talking about his employees, or the rest of us that don't have 200 large in liquid assets that we can drop. He does, partly because of the hard work that his folks put in. Maybe he thinks that those of us who are effected by cost of living increases are financially irresponsible. Not sure. But he thinks the employees should work with no pay next time the company they don't own has a tough time. Wow. Just wow.

I was originally going to comment after Steve. But I thought, "He just misunderstood Dean, and Steve cleared it up. No need to pile on." And I erased my post. Then I saw that you replied, and I thought, "See, he got it, that must be his apology."

That sure was a strange apology. The man didn't take a salary for a year and paid his employees to keep them on staff instead. Since there was little work, the business was draining money instead of making money. Like a smart businessman, he planned for this and had the flexibility to accomadate it. I'm sure it was a business decision, cost to retain Vs. cost to rehire and train, but it was a gamble. What if the slowdown lasted longer? And I'm sure he also wanted to do right by his employees. If he didn't like them, that would have been the perfect time to clean house and start fresh. I took the fiscally responsible comment to mean that he was looking out for his employees, and they are largely oblivious to the bullet they dodged. Like many others, they could have lost their jobs when no one was hiring. I take it that they were not financially prepared for that kind of event. Being prepared is key to fiscal responsibility, whether you make $30k or $300k. Living within your means and saving 6 months of expenses is good advice for everyone. So they come out the other side, and business picks up and prices rise due to well above normal inflation. He just floated them for a year, you expect him to give raises? First he needs to pay himself back for the year he lost, then he needs to build his emergency fund back up. And we are also looking at a very uncertain economic future? 

And yes, he could have told them they didn't have a job. Would the company have folded? Maybe, I don't know the company or the business. But most businesses that don't trade for a year are done. I see that all around me right now. LOTS of businesses suffered structural damage to their buildings after Hurricaine Ian. Many of them are still waiting on insurance payouts. Most of those have been closed permanently for months now because they are unable to do business. It's been almost a year to the day. He made that cash infusion to keep his livelihood around for his future. That's good for him and his employees. 
 

How long would I work without pay? Depends on how well I was paid before that. If I was paid well enough to have $200,000 to drop after a year with no pay AND I was vested in the business so I knew I'd make it all back and then some when business picked up I sure would/could work for a while with no pay. But since that figure reflects a few years of my net pay, I'm unable to do that. Must be all that financial irresponsibility.

Do you care to share where you have gleaned these pearls of wisdom? I expect that you must have a great deal of expirience running a sucessful business. Or is it easier telling other people what they should do with their businesses? 

In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :

The part about how his employees wouldn't work a year without pay.  No, they wouldn't. They probably don't have the means to, if they did they might have already gone to work for themselves.  Few people are employees because they want to be, but because they need to pay bills. 
 

Unfortunately this is pretty far from reality in many cases. There are lots of employers who net less than some of their employees. And that is even before you start counting the ones that are going out of business. There are also lots of employees that go into business for themselves, only to realize that they now have more work, took a pay cut, and opened up a lot of risk.

In reply to DrBoost :

You 100% insinuated he was fortunate to be in the position to not work for a year, and have $200k because the people he paid out of his own pocket, could not do it. I hope you're as fortunate one day and come back to let us know how great it was.