American attitudes, where are we at today.

E36 M3 happens and will happen again..It's simply called The Rise and Fall of (pick your civilization)"...Inca, Maya, Egyptian, Roman, Greek, Persian, whatever...

Throughout history, there have been times when a certain segment of the population was put in the path of plenty. And they would not only thrive, but also spout dogma as to why they are entitled above others to enjoy such plenty.

But do keep in mind that humans have never been anything but parasitic in nature, and the downfall of whatever we do is inevitable.

Nobody gets to pick the life and times they are given. While we arguably could have done better, we certainly all won a lottery ticket the day we were born in North America during this era. Anyone thinking that there is anything that can be done to drastically alter the course of events that are unfolding, is delusional.

From the point of view of an American who has spent most of his life living in various foreign countries, my observation is that the country came off the rails the day that Clinton was tossed under the bus for getting a BJ. It would take a party of monumental shortsightedness and stupidity to toss the nations reputation into such a spotlight for no other reason than to make a desperate grab for power for the sake of power; to derail the workings of the nation and impeach a functioning presidency showed a total disregard for the nation, its finances and its worldwide reputation. It was also the point in history at which qualified people seem to have stopped applying for the job.

In reply to NOHOME:

And Bill Clinton could have ended all if he had told the truth. Yup, I got a hummer by girl who could have been my daughter while a secret service agent was guarding the door.

In reply to NOHOME:

nailed it.

ALthough I'm not really informed enough to say when or where america derailed. I will say that it seems like the candidates for presidency have been less than "ideal" (to put it lightly). I was in the 5th grade when Clinton got elected, so I can't say if his predecessors were any better...

spitfirebill wrote: In reply to NOHOME: And Bill Clinton could have ended all if he had told the truth. Yup, I got a hummer by girl who could have been my daughter while a secret service agent was guarding the door.

Right..

JFK regularly berkeleyed not-his-wife and your country thinks he's a saint.

Not buying it for a minute.

Signed: The rest of the known world.

I never thought JFK was a saint. We don't all think that. That would be like he was royalty.

Nobody gave a E36 M3 about Clinton's BJ.

He dug his own grave when he got on national television, wagged his finger at the camera (and the American people), and said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman". How stupid did he think we were?

The moment things changed for President Clinton

Meanwhile, his security team was somewhere in a back room saying, "What the berkeley do do you mean, she's got his DNA on the dress???"

It was a bold-faced lie. He looked the American people in the eye and broke the trust they had put in him.

JFK didn't do that.

It wasn't that he was a skirt chaser. Everyone knew it, and knew there had been many before him.

It was his willingness to lie so directly, and so blatantly. It created (or validated) a distrust of everything he said.

So...

It's ok if a guy cheats on his wife, as long as he doesn't lie to the country about it?

Right.

Pretty much every politician, in every country, ever, has lied their wiggly black guts out.

The American people went on a witch hunt with Clinton, that's the only difference. The guy turned out to be a flawed human just like everybody else and got burned for it.

Reagans head of CIA committed treason by negotiating w/Iran, traded weapons to terrorists...

I said it before... we need dueling legal... It brings personal responsibility to a head... are you willing to put your life on the line for your views???

Dueling will also remove the wheat from the chaff......

FWIW, the politics of this nation lost my interest when a man was determined to be President based on a decision by the Supreme Court of the State of My Brother Is The Governor.

I haven't voted since then, the day that it was made clear that my vote is immaterial.

Scientists Are Beginning to Figure Out Why Conservatives Are… Conservative

Conservatives Big on Fear, Brain Study Finds

Maybe all this just comes down to biology.

SVreX wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Still, I appreciate you making my point. Instead of seeing that life isn't nearly as bad as it appears, you find reasons why we should be mad and afraid. Which goes a long way in letting the manipulators do what they want.

More BS. I see no reason for people to be mad or afraid, and I am certainly not. I am simply recognizing reality, and adjusting as needed.

No, you are just posting more reasons to be overly pissed off. You may call it reality, but that's just how you see it.

Auto industry got bailed out. Construction industry is completely on its own, and has suffered a downturn somewhere around 50%, which was completely beyond their control.

You got bailed out FAR more than we did. But then again, the whole model of trickle down economics is crap. But the banks got many more billions than the auto industry did. The big difference is that we still had to make cars to make money, whereas the banks didn't need to make more homes.

Again, though, you find reasons to be pissed off. Since the housing construction industry has not come back, but the employments numbers have recovered- it seems that most constrcution workers moved on to do something else. Like you.

Wars have been constantly fought- so having an uprising somewhere in the world is not a shock.

It's funny that the start of the thread was about voter engagement- since there was not enough, and then moved quickly into voter id and laws, as if there are too many people voting. I'm pretty sure that NOT enough people are engaged vs. too many.

Still, I think the constant barrage of pessimism is tiring. If you want to dig your bunker for the upcoming collapse- go for it. I'd rather spend my time, money, and effort enjoying what life brings me.

Clinton's problem was indeed the eye squinting finger wagging lie on national TV. That and tryign to re-invent the word is. Because at that point people understood that the accusations by the other women were likely true too. Despite all of the venom rabid dog James Carville could regurgitate. This by the party that is all about the women and their rights and dignity.

Kennedy was in an era when the press still covered up for presidents. Look into his past. It isn't too pretty. I got a chuckle when the teen intern that he was banging published her book a couple of years ago. Baba Wawa was about to go catatonic during an interview.

Hell for that matter check into LBJ. Talk about entertaining!

The disrespect with presidents did not start with Obama, it started with Bush. As much as the repubs dispised Bill Clinton, they still called him Mr. President.

alfadriver wrote: But the banks got many more billions than the auto industry did.

That's true.

But, as I have already noted, this money did not get into the construction industry. It stayed in the vaults.

The banking industry and the construction industry are 2 different industries, regardless of how you'd like to paint them.

Unless, of course, you are willing to give up all the business that is paid for with bank auto loans.

spitfirebill wrote: In reply to NOHOME: And Bill Clinton could have ended all if he had told the truth. Yup, I got a hummer by girl who could have been my daughter while a secret service agent was guarding the door.

You are absolutely 100% morally and ethically right.

But you are "Dead Right".

Here we are, fighting about who's fault it was. Banking, auto, or construction (housing). They've played us like fiddles. It is/was the fault of the Clinton administration, the then current [Republican controlled] Congress, to a lesser extent the Bush I administration, and then it all comes back on the American people who voted these yahoos in.

At the end of the day I think it comes down on the education system. How is it not required to teach, starting in elementary or middle school, about compound interest? About debt? Housing costs? And most importantly, long-term savings. And be re-done every single year. My fiance and I could be approved for a mortgage that is 4 times our combined salary. And we're looking at houses for the most part that are at a max 2.5 times our combined salary. Because we're using our own brains, because we've been educated on what we can and cannot afford by someone who doesn't stand to make money by selling us more.

SVreX wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote: With all the wunnerful connectivity of teh int3erw3bt00bz it wouldn't be hard to have SS verify each unique number for a given election. Use it once, then no more for that SSN till the next election in that area. Done. The IRS does not necessarily cross check with SS about whether a given SSN is valid. That's where a lot of their problems have come from. They have most definitely found that some people have filed fraudulent returns early before the true owner of the SSN files, though so it's not like some of the infrastructure for what I propose isn't already in place. Also, credit card companies can immediately match card number/expiration/V code. Should be pretty simple to do similar with SSN's.

You are partly correct. IRS doesn't check validity of SS numbers. Bu they DO check already for duplication, and it isn't happening. You are assuming the SS numbers are being reused. They are not. They are only used once in tax filing. They are fraudulent, but they are still unique. Therefore, I don't think your plan would work. Duplicates would not show up at the polls. Actually, I KNOW your plan wouldn't work. If some folks object to the requirement of ID's at the polls, just imagine the uproar if SS numbers were linked to voting (it's illegal to use SS numbers for identification purposes).

If you think, even for a moment, that SSN's aren't already used for ID even by the government....

In reply to Curmudgeon:

Of course they are, but they are not supposed to be.

Using SS numbers for ID is contracting, not expanding. Heck, GA used SS numbers on drivers licenses until recently!

SVreX wrote:

alfadriver wrote: But the banks got many more billions than the auto industry did.

That's true. But, as I have already noted, this money did not get into the construction industry. It stayed in the vaults. The banking industry and the construction industry are 2 different industries, regardless of how you'd like to paint them.

No, they feed each other. More that the banks sell the loans that tie people to "low monthly payments" to purchase stuff that they should not. Which directly feeds the construction industry. Loans go away, new housing starts goes away. Simple.

No banks, no new homes. Done.

Seems so very obvious.

Moreso that much of the collapse of the banking industry was tied to bad housing loans.

Still, one can choose to find the faults in society, or one can choose to find the good.

For me, I'm tired of being pissed off all the time- it's exhausting.

So I choose to find the new restaurants that are doing really well, I choose to find the small stores designing clothing that costs due to the fact that someone in the US had to make it, I choose to find the new distilleries and note that the premium price does taste better than the mass brands. I note that many tech stuff keeps selling- which says that people HAVE money. I note that when I go on vacation, that I'm not alone- which tells me that people have disposable income. Same for going to sporting events. Heck, same for going to restaurants. I note that people are buying cars- which should be stunning if the whole nation is suffering that bad- but more and more expensive cars still sell. I got to the mall and stores and see that the parking lots are packed with cars.

I note that for every one car that pisses me off, there are hundreds of others around me that don't. So the bad are a small fraction of the good. I enjoy seeing the predictions of peril go down in smoke (anyone still think Obama is going to ban guns??).

The world ain't ending, folks. It's just still rotating.

That's what I choose to see.

spitfirebill wrote: Clinton's problem was indeed the eye squinting finger wagging lie on national TV. That and tryign to re-invent the word is. Because at that point people understood that the accusations by the other women were likely true too. Despite all of the venom rabid dog James Carville could regurgitate. This by the party that is all about the women and their rights and dignity. Kennedy was in an era when the press still covered up for presidents. Look into his past. It isn't too pretty. I got a chuckle when the teen intern that he was banging published her book a couple of years ago. Baba Wawa was about to go catatonic during an interview. Hell for that matter check into LBJ. Talk about entertaining! The disrespect with presidents did not start with Obama, it started with Bush. As much as the repubs dispised Bill Clinton, they still called him Mr. President.

The backlash against the leadership was already building by the time Clinton wagged his finger. He merely dragged it out into the open. No, come to think of it, Presidents started becoming fair game when Nixon was found to be up to his neck in Watergate. Before that yeah there were a lot of presidential peccadilloes but they were for the most part swept under the rug. Then it was proven you could get a Pulitzer if you could only prove your story and since then it's been open season, every President winds up under the microscope.

I'm not saying Nixon should have been given a free pass; far from it. It was pretty well known to the Secret Service and to the press that every President was allowed a certain amount of latitude; Kennedy's love life along with those of Eisenhower and Roosevelt were known of but there was a 'gentleman's agreement' to keep that under wraps along with Roosevelt's polio. Nixon probably would have continued that but instead of shtupping around he chose instead to play really dirty politics and got caught. And that meant it was open season on future Presidents. Clinton got caught up in that; what would have in earlier days merited nothing more than eye rolling became impeachment. He also, by lying and getting caught in it, wrecked what little respect people had for the office of the President. Every future President will reap what Nixon started and Bill finished sowing.

mtn wrote: Here we are, fighting about who's fault it was. Banking, auto, or construction (housing). They've played us like fiddles. It is/was the fault of the Clinton administration, the then current [Republican controlled] Congress, to a lesser extent the Bush I administration, and then it all comes back on the American people who voted these yahoos in. At the end of the day I think it comes down on the education system. How is it not required to teach, starting in elementary or middle school, about compound interest? About debt? Housing costs? And most importantly, long-term savings. And be re-done every single year. My fiance and I could be approved for a mortgage that is 4 times our combined salary. And we're looking at houses for the most part that are at a max 2.5 times our combined salary. Because we're using our own brains, because we've been educated on what we can and cannot afford by someone who doesn't stand to make money by selling us more.

Absofreakinglutely! Wife and I used to get "pre-approved for $350,000 mortgage" letters all the time. Problem is I KNOW I could not afford them and if I could, I wouldn't want to use that much of my disposable income for it. At some point people have to use their brain.

And mtn, they should also go back to teaching civics. And not from a slanted point of view please.

SVreX wrote: In reply to Curmudgeon: Of course they are, but they are not supposed to be. Using SS numbers for ID is contracting, not expanding. Heck, GA used SS numbers on drivers licenses until recently!

I used to do air monitoring during asbestos abatement projects (22+ years ago). We were required to list the SS# for the personal air samples we collected. I wouldn't dream of even asking now.

Flight Service wrote: Scientists Are Beginning to Figure Out Why Conservatives Are… Conservative Conservatives Big on Fear, Brain Study Finds Maybe all this just comes down to biology.

So we have one cherry-picked article originating from a hardcore leftist publication (Mother Jones), and another referring to a diatribe written by a radical progressive liberal elitist PhD (Nigel Barber) about the conservative mind. How unbiased could that ever be? And the picture of the guy in the Revolutionary War outfit? What's the purpose of that, other than to portray conservatives as goofballs locked in the distant past? That is totally and unconditionally biased journalism. That's no different than an article in the National Review citing something written by George Will about the liberal mind with a picture of a moonbat. In any case, when one sees these kinds of biased articles, one needs only to view the source and the agenda. We've been vilifying politics and the politicians here, but much of the blame for the strong and unprecedented polarization and inability to get meaningful things accomplished can be leveled at the media. Both sides.

In reply to alfadriver:

So you're good then with not using bank loans for auto financing, right?

I agree that the construction industry is completely tied to the banking industry in an unhealthy way, and that we are completely at their mercy at times.

But the bad choices of the bankers were not because of the builders.

And your claim that construction got a much bigger bailout than the auto industry is patently false.

I'd be interested to see which cultures or countries, if any, have a major or predominant culture group that advocates for degrowth, "less-is-more", "focus on time rather than money", "make due with what you have" types of consumer economic markets.

This also could be described as "national income satisfaction". Is there such a measure?

EDIT there is such a thing, called "Mean Life Satisfactions" and it can be compared against per capita GDP. There is also something called the Easterlin Paradox, otherwise known as "The Happiness Paradox" The USA seems to be a good example of this. As a whole, we all make more, but we're not any happier than we were before.

In reply to SVreX: You can move on at some point, can't you?

This line of one of your posts is really funny-

Regarding the thread subject, your post makes my point precisely. Divisiveness is a tool, chaos is the goal. Thanks for being such a patriotic devoted party loyalist, alfa.

So it's a bad thing to be optimistic, is it? I'm more trying to point out how people choose to find negative in life, and dwell on it. Is that so bad?

You insult me for choosing to find the positive in life? If ANYTHING, that tells us how crappy life is- when you go and have to insult people for being positive. Thanks.

I kinda knew that a few years ago. If you can believe it, I regretted supporting your oganization- could have done better. But I moved on.