Or, and I know this is a stretch but bear with me here, many of the "peaceful" ones could be, you know, lying.
Nah, couldn't be that simple.
Or, and I know this is a stretch but bear with me here, many of the "peaceful" ones could be, you know, lying.
Nah, couldn't be that simple.
KyAllroad wrote: Or, and I know this is a stretch but bear with me here, many of the "peaceful" ones could be, you know, lying. Nah, couldn't be that simple.
More likely variation:
Many of the "peaceful" ones could be unaware of some of the tenants, nuances, or details of the faith which could be interpreted as more extreme, while the violent ones could be taking details out of context or misinterpreted and making a religion out of them.
Kind of like "Christian" snake handling.
Religion is often (usually?) out of balance. People tend to learn a little bit, then try to apply it in an exclusive and overbearing manner.
That's why I am not into religion (though I am a Christian).
I could tell you what I think, but pretty sure it would violate the terms of use for this website.
Muslims denouncing the attacks
You won't hear about it here because the news does not want you to know about it.
In reply to mad_machine:
Just like Christians denounce anti-Semitism.
There's more to it than words.
then what about the Ayatollah of Iran cutting off his trip to Europe so he can work on the Syrian Peace Talks? They all want this to stop, ISIL kills anybody not ISIL. They are not just killing Christians and Jews.. they are killing other Muslims that do not believe exactly as they do too.
In reply to mad_machine:
I see that, too- but here's the confusing thing- for some reason, the attempt to stop people from going from the west to Syria to train isn't working. Somehow, the work to prevent further militants isn't working. Or isn't being done.
Is that more sunni v. Shiite?
Clearly ISIL is killing Muslims first, and everyone else a pretty distant second. Yet it still is being fed by other muslims. (while this past weekend was tragic and very graphic, it's not the same numbers that are being killed in Syria)
How that gets constantly fed, I just don't get.
alfadriver wrote: In reply to mad_machine: I see that, too- but here's the confusing thing- for some reason, the attempt to stop people from going from the west to Syria to train isn't working. Somehow, the work to prevent further militants isn't working. Or isn't being done. Is that more sunni v. Shiite? Clearly ISIL is killing Muslims first, and everyone else a pretty distant second. Yet it still is being fed by other muslims. (while this past weekend was tragic and very graphic, it's not the same numbers that are being killed in Syria) How that gets constantly fed, I just don't get.
Devil's advocate here: Say you're an ISIL leader. It's been getting difficult lately with Russia kicking ass and stuff, and you need new recruits to fill the ranks. Suicide bombing has horrendous turnover after all. What would you do?
Maybe you get a few of your guys abroad to make some highly public attacks on The Western World. That should get the attention of quite a few individuals that might have been on the fence about joining your cause right? They say there's no such thing as bad publicity after all. Then, when The West retaliates, and people see their homes, neighbors, etc being bombed it brings even more recruits in.
It might be poking the bear, but as an ISIL leader that's kind of your thing and this plan is pretty much a win-win-win. You hurt your enemy, get your name in the news, and convert more loonies into 'splode-a-bots.
Back to serious: When the US can't keep illegal immigrants from crossing the Mexican border and there are currently millions of undocumented people in the US, even though there's an entire government agency devoted to patrolling the border, is it so hard to believe that another country with fewer resources might not be able to keep small groups of very motivated people out?
STM317 wrote: Suicide bombing has horrendous turnover after all.
Thank you for making me spit coffee on myself.
I do agree with you. When ISIL has laws that are so strict that other strict Muslim countries step back and go "whoa" you know you are dealing with some extreme Zealots. I too do not know what they have that attracts the young and disenfranchised to their ranks, especially when you know that their retirement package includes a belt with c4 in it
mad_machine wrote: I do agree with you. When ISIL has laws that are so strict that other strict Muslim countries step back and go "whoa" you know you are dealing with some extreme Zealots. I too do not know what they have that attracts the young and disenfranchised to their ranks, especially when you know that their retirement package includes a belt with c4 in it
If you had grown up on a steady diet of on-line war games you might have a better idea of what these guys are looking for. They are bored. They need a cause to live for.
Everybody at some point wants to be a rock star and this is one hell of a stage. They even have superstars like "Johny Jihad" as role models to aspire to. Think of the great stories these guys are going to have to tell their kids and grand-kids. (Obviously not the vest dudes
)
I heard an interesting discussion about all of this and the thought thread that wound through it was,
"what if religion is the problem?" I mean all the mass shootings here were people claiming Christianity (all but two IIRC) you have the terrorists claiming Islam.
All I see anymore is a bunch of Bob Costass with God coming out of their mouths and guns in their hands. It's getting really hard to tell the difference.
Flight Service wrote: I heard an interesting discussion about all of this and the thought thread that wound through it was, "what if religion is the problem?" I mean all the mass shootings here were people claiming Christianity (all but two IIRC) you have the terrorists claiming Islam. All I see anymore is a bunch of Bob Costass with God coming out of their mouths and guns in their hands. It's getting really hard to tell the difference.
See the Pastafarian thread. When we convert all to his carbohydrate teachings we can all move past religious divisions.
But in all seriousness, yes. IT is the problem but IT doesn't seem to be going away any time soon.
Flight Service wrote: I heard an interesting discussion about all of this and the thought thread that wound through it was, "what if religion is the problem?" I mean all the mass shootings here were people claiming Christianity (all but two IIRC) you have the terrorists claiming Islam. All I see anymore is a bunch of Bob Costass with God coming out of their mouths and guns in their hands. It's getting really hard to tell the difference.
Religion is an easy target. The fact is, there is good and evil in this world. Always has been and always will be. It's human nature. As long as there are differences in people, there will be conflict that breeds hatred. In this case, the differences maybe religious, but they could just as easily be political, socioeconomic, racial, et al. I have no doubt that if religion suddenly went away, humans would just find other reasons to hate each other and the killing would continue...
STM317 wrote:Flight Service wrote: I heard an interesting discussion about all of this and the thought thread that wound through it was, "what if religion is the problem?" I mean all the mass shootings here were people claiming Christianity (all but two IIRC) you have the terrorists claiming Islam. All I see anymore is a bunch of Bob Costass with God coming out of their mouths and guns in their hands. It's getting really hard to tell the difference.Religion is an easy target. The fact is, there is good and evil in this world. Always has been and always will be. It's human nature. As long as there are differences in people, there will be conflict that breeds hatred. In this case, the differences maybe religious, but they could just as easily be political, socioeconomic, racial, et al. I have no doubt that if religion suddenly went away, humans would just find other reasons to hate each other and the killing would continue...
You're absolutely right, if religion were to just up and vanish tomorrow it would hardly spell the end of all human conflict.
The issue that religion introduces, though, is that you can't reason with a zealot - no sitting down at a table and coming to mutually acceptable terms, their beliefs are as deep seated as anything can possibly be. How do you rationalize with a person willing to blow themselves to smithereens over the issue? You can't.
So what can you do about this current situation in the middle east? We're in far too deep to just walk away and wash our hands of it. The half assed approach of just pecking at them with drones and airstrikes isn't working. We could fight another decade long ground war, at great cost in treasure and blood, although I doubt that ultimately does any good either as we would just be perpetuating the conditions that lead to our current situation in the first place. Glassing the place is a whole 'nother discussion I don't even want to get into right now.
there will always be a "us vs them". Religion is one, race is another, and even nationality has played a part. The biggest difference between them is that religion, as Furious_E points out.. Religion induces a lot more zealotry simply because you are dealing with a belief..
I think your always going to find a Rambo in a group of people. Even during our justified wars, there were good American kids who went to war and found their calling in the bloodshed.
There are a lot of good Muslim kids who get bored with the idea of becoming a petrochemical engineer or taking over the family business, they aren't religious but they know going to fight for ISIL that they'll have friends right there alongside them.
How that turns into Muslim on Muslim violence, no idea, but as the world media and ever expanding capitalist monoculture spreads throughout the world, more people are growing disenchanted with working a job, buying a house, owning sweet rides and settling into the exported American Dream. Rather than people wanting to be like everyone else, people want to separate themselves from society at large. Whether that's going off grid or off the deep end, joining the fight abroad for right or wrong reasons or traveling the world in the name of peace, as the world fills up I can only imagine more people wanting to be famous one way or another.
Sure are some broad generalities in this thread. 
KyAllroad wrote:Flight Service wrote: I heard an interesting discussion about all of this and the thought thread that wound through it was, "what if religion is the problem?" I mean all the mass shootings here were people claiming Christianity (all but two IIRC) you have the terrorists claiming Islam. All I see anymore is a bunch of Bob Costass with God coming out of their mouths and guns in their hands. It's getting really hard to tell the difference.See the Pastafarian thread. When we convert all to his carbohydrate teachings we can all move past religious divisions. But in all seriousness, yes. IT is the problem but IT doesn't seem to be going away any time soon.
I am converting to a high protein no carb diet. All Pastafarians should be destroyed for disobeying my beliefs....
We have a few thousand years of how the rest of that goes so I will just save some typing.
Seems a bit like an opportunistic, Ghengis Khan-style, land grab in a big hunk of the world that's been in chaos for a long time. The recruiting hook is to give a cause to a bunch of testosterone-fueled young folk who've been disenfranchised, uneducated, and have very few prospects for anything to change where they are (at least it seems the educated ones aren't the vest-wearing crowd). They are on an impressive run at pissing off a lot of folks who have plenty of hardware and power, but so far, not so much will to actually direct it at them. I think they mostly don't care about the west other than as a recruiting source and general yankee pig-dog infidel. Their main aim is creating a single empire carved out of the region.
Tell the christian extremists that isil mDe gay marriage legal, tell the rednecks that theyre taking away guns and the right to marry your cousin, and tell the libtards theyre taking away welfare. The rest will sort itself.
If anyone cares, I just got this email at work...
BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA A PROCLAMATION
The American people stand with the people of France. Friday's terror attacks were not just an attack on Paris; they were an attack on all humanity and the universal values we share, including the bonds of liberté, égalité, and fraternité. These values will endure far beyond any terrorists or their hateful vision. The United States and our allies do not give in to fear, nor will we be divided, nor will anyone change our way of life. We will do whatever it takes, working with nations and peoples around the world, to bring the perpetrators of these attacks to justice, and to go after terrorists who threaten our people.
As a mark of respect for the victims of the senseless acts of violence perpetrated on November 13, 2015, in Paris, France, by the authority vested in me as President of the United States by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, I hereby order that the flag of the United States shall be flown at half-staff at the White House and upon all public buildings and grounds, at all military posts and naval stations, and on all naval vessels of the Federal Government in the District of Columbia and throughout the United States and its Territories and possessions until sunset, November 19, 2015. I also direct that the flag shall be flown at half-staff for the same length of time at all United States embassies, legations, consular offices, and other facilities abroad, including all military facilities and naval vessels and stations.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this fifteenth day of November, in the year of our Lord two thousand fifteen, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and fortieth.
BARACK OBAMA
Thats the shield the French Police used to enter to concert hall. I hope none of the police were injured.
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