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bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/18/23 1:20 p.m.

In reply to jharry3 :

yeah a lot of common misconceptions there. larger 5.56 frangible bullets have good penetration without the over-penetration you get from the 55-62 ball ammo. But if you're using ball ammo for home defense you're already doing it wrong. The 5.56 will allow quicker follow up shots. "knock down power" is a talking point but in most defensive shootings unless you hit something critical (brain, spinal column, etc) it will take multiple tries to stop the attacker. But a 77gr Sierra 5.56 delivers right around 1400ftlbs of energy while the 20ga is 1590. Keep in mind that unlike 12ga the 20 does not keep the tighter pattern to deliver all of that energy en mass. at 20 feet that pattern is already wider than a torso and you're spreading out that impact across a broader area. 

Honestly, any firearm being fired inside a closed home is going to be devastating to your hearing. I hope if you have to you wear ear plugs to bed. 

With all that said, my primary response is a 5" .45, and if needed a 500 12ga with 00. The ar is kept ready for coyotes more than anything else. My 500 is a cut down full choke barrel (it was rusty anyway) to 19" and at 30' the pattern is fist size or smaller with all 9 pellets. According to the internets thats just shy of 1900ftlbs of energy being shoved into an area smaller than my fist. 

Rodan
Rodan UltraDork
10/18/23 1:32 p.m.

In reply to jharry3 :

As a guy who held certifications to instruct for both ARs and shotguns, and has spent over 25 years training both professionals and amateurs, I'm gonna disagree, because most of what you said is objectively wrong.  The only time I would ever recommend a shotgun over an AR for defensive use is in a place where ARs are not legal to own and shotguns are, and even then I might suggest other alternatives.   

1 - buckshot will penetrate in typical residential structures more than 5.56 especially when the 5.56 is something other than FMJ - this has been borne out by a couple of decades of LE ballistics testing.  5.56 usually stops faster than 9mm, 40 and 45 in most residential building materials because it has a greater tendency to destabilize and rapidly shed energy after hitting barriers. 

2 - 12ga 00 produces about 15% more muzzle energy than a 55gr 5.56, but 20ga #3 buck produces only about 80% of 5.56 muzzle energy.  The effective range of most shotguns is 10-15 yards with buckshot, which is barely adequate for home defense distances, and buckshot is incredibly inefficient ballistically.  A properly zeroed AR is effective from muzzle to 200yds with a single POA for defensive purposes, making it a versatile 'one-gun' solution.  Also, typical soft body armor will stop buckshot, but will be defeated by 5.56... 

3 - 20ga/12ga and 5.56 all produce over 160db at the muzzle, so it's kind of irrelevant.  They both suck to shoot indoors without hearing protection.  Sound comparison

4 - I've done a LOT of low-light shooting with ARs and with a decent muzzle device (even an A2 birdcage) they're no worse than any shotgun I've fired under the same circumstances.  In anything other than a completely dark conditions (in which you probably shouldn't be pressing the trigger), it's really irrelevant.

5 - a pump shotgun with an 18" barrel and magazine extension is only about 1-2" longer than a 16" AR, but puts a lot of weight out front as opposed to having the gun balance on the receiver.  Even worse with a light mounted, and any defensive long gun needs a light.  An AR is easier to handle and manipulate for most people in CQB conditions.   

6 - An AR has less recoil, which makes for easier and more accurate follow-up shots, or shots on multiple targets.  It's a lot easier to train with, and since the competency of the shooter is really just as important than the gun in question, this matters quite a lot.  You can also get .22 conversions and .22 ARs for cheap training.  Shotguns seem simple to run, but add a little stress, and they're harder to run than an AR.  I've seen plenty of shooter induced malfunctions with 'dead reliable' pump shotguns.

7 - An AR is far more precise, which is always an advantage.  

8 - An AR holds more rounds without reloading, and is far easier to reload when the time comes.  Also easier to carry spare mags than spare shotgun ammo.  

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
10/18/23 9:29 p.m.

00 buck is fine out to 25 yards which might be why the military shotgun course of fire starts at 25 yards.  
 

Yes 5.56 AR bullets tumble and break up by design so they don't typically have penetration issues.  
 

For home defense I prefer a Binelli M series shotgun and a sidearm.  Body armor might defeat 00 buck to the chest but it won't defeat an easy to place follow up shot.  
 

If you need to defend your home and family, your ears can heal later.  It's kind of strange how people will start trying to rationalize long term issues when discussing life and death situations.  Surviving to protect your family is the only priority at that point.  If you haven't already pre decided that or trained that way, you have bigger concerns.  

Antihero
Antihero GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
10/18/23 9:39 p.m.

If we are verging off of the AR, how about a 357mag carbine.

 

It has its downsides but it's similar in power to a 30-30 in a rifle and will cover pretty much anything you need it too plus it's viewed as less scary by people that don't like guns

barefootcyborg5000
barefootcyborg5000 UltimaDork
10/18/23 10:06 p.m.

In reply to Antihero :

I know I've said it here before. 
 

I want a 357 lever so bad. I don't really know why. Also twin 38s in a very polished nickel/MOP configuration. 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
10/18/23 11:00 p.m.
barefootcyborg5000 said:

In reply to Antihero :

I know I've said it here before. 
 

I want a 357 lever so bad. I don't really know why. Also twin 38s in a very polished nickel/MOP configuration. 

I want a 41 mag lever rifle.  357 mag would be my 2nd choice.

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/19/23 12:41 a.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:
barefootcyborg5000 said:

In reply to Antihero :

I know I've said it here before. 
 

I want a 357 lever so bad. I don't really know why. Also twin 38s in a very polished nickel/MOP configuration. 

I want a 41 mag lever rifle.  357 mag would be my 2nd choice.

Yup. Know the feeling.  A golden boy in 357 solved that problem.   And yes they are really fun to shoot.   Plinking at 100 yards is so much fun.  They are heavy for there size but not overly so.  

Antihero
Antihero GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
10/19/23 3:01 a.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

The only thing wrong with 41magnum is that 44 magnum exists, it's a great round.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/19/23 8:49 a.m.
dean1484 said:
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:
barefootcyborg5000 said:

In reply to Antihero :

I know I've said it here before. 
 

I want a 357 lever so bad. I don't really know why. Also twin 38s in a very polished nickel/MOP configuration. 

I want a 41 mag lever rifle.  357 mag would be my 2nd choice.

Yup. Know the feeling.  A golden boy in 357 solved that problem.   And yes they are really fun to shoot.   Plinking at 100 yards is so much fun.  They are heavy for there size but not overly so.  

I still long for an 1873 in .357. Just can't seem to do the whole $1400 for one thing though.

 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
10/19/23 8:56 a.m.

Alright if it's going to be an ar10 in 308, what's the best way to get something? Is it less expensive to buy parts and assemble them myself? What about seeking something ambidextrous? What about optics?

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/19/23 9:04 a.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

you're literally 100 miles away from one of the largest suppliers of all things AR. 

PSA

barefootcyborg5000
barefootcyborg5000 UltimaDork
10/19/23 9:11 a.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

Buy a PSA complete. It's a great value. A couple bolt-ons (optic, stock, trigger) and it'll be a great tool. I'd avoid trying to piece one together, since AR10s aren't all the same. Avoid the possibility of buying incompatible components. 
For example, mine has a fixed stock, a 90* grip, and a vortex 4x12 scope. It shoots as well and as accurate as any of the more expensive offerings, and kicks a fair bit less than any of the old bolt-guns I've run. All in I think I'm $1100. The only situation I wouldn't want to use it would be indoor self defense, and that has more to do with my stature than anything. 

Rodan
Rodan UltraDork
10/19/23 9:33 a.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

I would not build a .308 AR from parts.  The big frame ARs are more finicky than 5.56 ARs, and you're more likely to run into issues building one from a pile of parts.

PSA makes a very nice AR for the money, though I don't have any personal experience with their .308 ARs.  Another ~$100 gets you into a Ruger SFAR.  I have one and it's a nice rifle, and it will take a lot of 5.56 AR parts being designed around the smaller 5.56 frame.  The SFAR also comes from the factory with an adjustable gas block.  It's nice to have in a .308 and necessary if you ever decide to suppress it.

Ambidextrous safeties and other parts are add-ons you don't typically see at this price point, but are easily obtained.

Optics are a wide-open subject... how do you want to use the rifle?  IMHO a 1-8x LPVO is nice for a 'serious' rifle in .308, something like a 3-18x for a DMR or range toy where you want to reach out a little further.  For budget stuff, take a look at Arken optics.  Their EPL series is amazingly good for the price.  I haven't had a chance to play with their new 1-8x (don't like the reticle), but I have an EPL6-24 and SH4-16 and they have both been really impressive.  The next step up in price I would recommend is Athlon.  I have optics from both the Ares and Cronus lines and they are very good, but honestly if you're not a professional, or competing seriously, the Arken will perform as well at 1/2 the price.  Primary Arms PLx is really good, but higher priced.  The Vortex Razor Gen II 1-6x is the best LPVO glass I've had the chance to play with, but $1500...  Stay away from anything Vortex under $1k.

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/19/23 10:07 a.m.

Yup   AR10's don't have a "mill spec" like the AR15 so not all the uppers and lowers go together.  This is where you should consider an upper and lower from the same manufacturer.  You will also have to keep in mind what improvements you will want and make sure that they will work with what you start with.  The trigger would be the #1 thing I would make sure works with what you are looking at.

 

RacetruckRon
RacetruckRon GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
10/19/23 10:49 a.m.
bobzilla said:

In reply to tuna55 :

you're literally 100 miles away from one of the largest suppliers of all things AR. 

PSA

Tuna's within 10 miles of the PSA storefront in Greenville.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/19/23 11:34 a.m.
RacetruckRon said:
bobzilla said:

In reply to tuna55 :

you're literally 100 miles away from one of the largest suppliers of all things AR. 

PSA

Tuna's within 10 miles of the PSA storefront in Greenville.

If I was him I'd be in so much trouble with the finance manager. Daily. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
10/19/23 12:07 p.m.

SO...

 

Sorting for AR10 in 308, looking for a barrel in the 18" range, still gives way too many options for me to understand.

 

https://palmettostatearmory.com/ar-10/ar-10-rifles.html?caliber_multi=.308%20Win&price=599-1009&product_list_mode=list&product_list_order=price_asc

 

Realistically I don't need tacti-cool stuff. This is emergency self defense and emergency hunting. A scope plus this rifle is likely fine. I want to leave money for a good scope and some magazines and a bunch of ammo, so cost definitely matters.

 

barefootcyborg5000
barefootcyborg5000 UltimaDork
10/19/23 12:14 p.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

That one at the top of the list for $750 would get my money. Same as mine except for the floating guard. I've *heard* that all their stainless barrels are made by FN, and mine is accurate enough to believe it. 

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-gen3-pa10-18-mid-length-308-win-1-10-stainless-steel-15-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle6.html

Noddaz
Noddaz GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
10/19/23 12:14 p.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

If you are able to run down to the local PSA store, do so.  

Put whatever PSA has in your hands and hold it.   Point it somewhere safe.  Make pew pew noises. OK, skip the last part.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
10/19/23 12:24 p.m.

In reply to Noddaz and Barefoot :

I will go physically, but I want to make sure I understand the options a bit more.

 

What about the Ruger or Aramlite in the same general range?

What about the multitude of options within the PSA range at that price?

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
10/19/23 12:30 p.m.

Barrel: heavy or A2 (I think heavy)

Gas system: mid length or rifle length

Gas block: Low-profile 3 position click switch adjustable gas block or front sight base

Other than that the differences between PSA offerings are mostly stock and grip, which should likely be better understood in person

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/19/23 12:36 p.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

Unless you're looking to hump around a CQB .308, I'd go rifle length, heavy barrel. With a scope, the front sight may be in your way unless you're using a riser to get it over that. But the adjustable seems overkill for a non-suppressed rifle. 

barefootcyborg5000
barefootcyborg5000 UltimaDork
10/19/23 12:39 p.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

Most of the options in that list are minor differences in furniture. Different front guards, stocks. I'd say get the cheapest one and worry about upgrading things later if you want to. Most of that stuff is cheap anyway, and very much personal-taste. 

Rodan
Rodan UltraDork
10/19/23 12:41 p.m.

I would opt for a rifle length gas system, especially on a gun without an adjustable gas block.  You're probably going to end up changing the stock to shoot with an optic anyway, so furniture isn't a big deal, and they all come with about the same stuff.

For ~$100 more than the basic PSA rifles, the Ruger has a two-stage trigger that's not bad, and an adjustable gas block from the factory.  It's also the cheapest option by far for a small frame .308, and will probably have better resale than the PSA if you ever decided to sell it.

Ruger SFAR is 6.8lbs, most of the big frame guns are 8+, though PSA doesn't list a weight, the Q&A section gives 10lbs, which seems high.  My SIG 716i is 8.5lbs.

matthewmcl
matthewmcl Dork
10/19/23 12:42 p.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

Rifle length gas should do fine for 18". Freefloat handguard long enough to cover the gas block is generally good (for length). If you are not looking at weird ammo (subsonic .308, for example), an adjustable gas block is usually just something to be able to set wrong. The non-adjustable gas system will be set to run just about anything you are likely to buy.

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