I certainly didn't mean it as a petty political jab, I found it more exasperating than funny, although in retrospect I shouldn't have linked to a source that also references jokes about the issue. I would've liked to think that the person at the highest level in charge of this disaster having patently absurd beliefs on the cause of the disaster that don't align with any existing political positions could rise above politics and be considered as a relevant practical matter.
Way too late to back up on the "Put out all forest fires, immediately" policy of the last century. Most forests are supposed to burn whenever the underbrush gets too likely to burn, and the fire goes through quickly enough that the trees themselves are not damaged. I really have no idea how you take back the danger created by the policy. Maybe the Chief Oompa Loompa is onto something with the raking idea, but I can't imagine the cost and labour involved in a task like that. Firebreaks around towns, more logging, more alternate road access for emergency use...
Totally not a good situation. Too much underbrush, too many people, not enough rain. Bad deal all around.
Has there been any sort of push to start building houses and other buildings out of stuff that doesn't burn? Steel roofs and concrete walls might not be the most appealing aesthetically but I'm willing to bet people would prefer that over rebuilding their homes every few years. Floridians have to build for hurricanes, time for people who live in tinderboxes to build for their reality.
I suspect there might be at some point, at least if you want insurance. Wood is cheap though (at least on the west coast) and concrete is actually an environmental (CO2) issue (manufacturing). Apparently risk areas (e.g. canyons) are having a hard time getting fire insurance or paying a lot. I am curious what kind of quote some of those houses in the canyons near Malibu will get (not the first time fire has gone through there).
For the ember born fires that hit house semi-randomly down wind, apparently the primary cause is embers blowing into the eve vents of houses. It would NOT be difficult to come up with a shutter system for that (heck, I suspect just duct taping them would stop it). Things like shake roofs (essential well dried firewood sitting on your roof!) are already not allowed.
For the "wall of fire" forest fire like in Paradise, I am not sure how much you can do though. There are shots of cars with rivers of aluminum running out of that (melting point 1200 deg) and completely incinerated bodies. You could make a super fire proof house there, and you would likely end up with a very expensive oven.
Serious forest management idea: Chop down dry trees and bush whenever they threaten to burn, load it into trucks and take it to a BECCS power plant. Sell carbon credits based on the amount stored to help compensate for costs. A controlled burn without the environmental and safety downsides.
KyAllroad (Jeremy) said:Has there been any sort of push to start building houses and other buildings out of stuff that doesn't burn? Steel roofs and concrete walls might not be the most appealing aesthetically but I'm willing to bet people would prefer that over rebuilding their homes every few years. Floridians have to build for hurricanes, time for people who live in tinderboxes to build for their reality.
A fire that melts aluminum cars is hot enough to weaken even reinforced concrete. Meaning, weaken it enough to make the structure unsafe. There's no building that survives a fire like that in move-in condition.
Exterior sprinkler system? installed up on the ridge of the roof and keeping the whole thing just wet enough to resist combustion.
And yeah, a "wall of flame" is just a huge failure from a forestry management standpoint. Time to start up them chainsaws and clear things out a bit to keep isolated fires from gaining that sort of momentum.
There is a big push for defensible space around homes built in fire-prone areas of CA. Something like 100 feet in all directions from your home is required to be kept clear. Its serious enough the fire fighters will ignore homes that don't have that space cleared in favor of those who do. My family friends almost lost their home when part of Redding, CA burned earlier this year but they were saved by having that land cleared.
Please keep in mind that dozens of people have burned to death in the Camp Fire and that number will likely continue to grow.
I wish the news would do the same. I'm getting pretty frustrated that seemingly every article has spent equal time (or more) talking about movie sets, mansions, and cars that burned down as they have spent on everyone who has died so far in NorCal. The entire town is gone and thousands of people have nowhere to go. I can't possibly care that a rich person lost a fancy car in light of the 77 (as of 11-19) people confirmed dead in Paradise, CA.
They need to mandate asbestos tile roofing.
dculberson said:A fire that melts aluminum cars is hot enough to weaken even reinforced concrete. Meaning, weaken it enough to make the structure unsafe. There's no building that survives a fire like that in move-in condition.
Much like the fire under the I-85 bridge in Hotlanta few years back.
In reply to thatsnowinnebago :
I suppose it depends on the news you watch/listen to. All I've heard on NPR is the death total and the missing list. The President's comment was generally ignored other than quotes from land managers about how difficult such things are due to multiple reasons, some man-made, some natural. It was actually discussed before the raking comment was made.
They did do an interview with a guy somewhere in Malibu that specifically built his house to resist a fire. It has no eve venting, all stucco exterior, had landscape watering and good clear space. His house was fine, most of the houses around him burned down.
So, it's likely a bit like safety in cars. You can never really make a car safe in ANY accident, but you can make it safe in most and at least make your odds better.
Maybe not so inappropriately, but I am in between the two fires in SoCal and called my sister in NorCal to let her know I was OK, and SHE let me know about the norther fire. I had no idea. The local news did not cover the northern fire at all on the news from what I saw. Like I say, not terribly inappropriate for me, but if I lived a ways away from the fires in SoCal, they probably should have at least put a bit of coverage on the northern fires.
Ian F said:In reply to thatsnowinnebago :
I suppose it depends on the news you watch/listen to. All I've heard on NPR is the death total and the missing list. The President's comment was generally ignored other than quotes from land managers about how difficult such things are due to multiple reasons, some man-made, some natural. It was actually discussed before the raking comment was made.
I'm sure I've got some confirmation bias going on. I've been reading mostly CNN articles I think and generally ignore the President's tweets. I also grew up in Redding so the Camp Fire and the Carr fire hit literally too close to home. I'm not calling anyone out here, I just know that issues way up in Northern California get overshadowed by anything that happens to celebrities in Southern California.
A hair-raising quote from the Cal Fire spokesman: "The fire is moving football-field lengths within seconds."
A friend of mine is waiting to hear if her dad's house survived. He's safe but they don't know about the house. Very stressful.
spitfirebill said:They need to mandate asbestos tile roofing.
That was sarcasm, right?
I drove from Sacramento (Grass Valley actually, to Bend instead of flying. I was in awe of the beauty once I got out of the Sacramento area. I really enjoyed that drive and would do it again.
I've been to CA many times, from south of LA, to inland, to the northern state line. There are many reasons I could never live there. The numerous potential natural disasters are only a few.
Grass Valley, Nevada City, and San diego were my favorite places to be and I'd love to visit again.
I was born there and much of my family live(d)s there. All lost their houses- it's a weird community in the sense that it's semi-forested in all neighborhoods. It can be pretty, but yeah, Itsnowwinnebago was right- few people build in defensible space. It's not that simple though, as much of the population is indigent, hiding out, or just enjoys the beauty of trees.
A family friend lost a 56 100/4, which is heartbreaking.... but it's a thing. All we know got out alive, and that's good enough for now.
Now it is raining and that is causing problems.
KyAllroad (Jeremy) said:Has there been any sort of push to start building houses and other buildings out of stuff that doesn't burn? Steel roofs and concrete walls might not be the most appealing aesthetically but I'm willing to bet people would prefer that over rebuilding their homes every few years. Floridians have to build for hurricanes, time for people who live in tinderboxes to build for their reality.
Wood frame houses are far safer than brick or cinderblock in earthquakes.
KyAllroad (Jeremy) said:Has there been any sort of push to start building houses and other buildings out of stuff that doesn't burn? Steel roofs and concrete walls might not be the most appealing aesthetically but I'm willing to bet people would prefer that over rebuilding their homes every few years. Floridians have to build for hurricanes, time for people who live in tinderboxes to build for their reality.
Concrete doesn't burn, but it does weaken considerably in heat.
I think another issue that's somewhat specific to the Paradise area is that at least in the parts of Paradise I've been to, the houses are built amongst the trees.
Rescue made on the fly during Woolsey Fire 9th November 2018
That video popped up yesterday and it's worth watching, helmet cam footage of a helicopter pilot picking up people (and their dogs) off of a ridge.
Adam
In reply to adam525i :
That's an amazing video. Great heroism and skill on the part of the pilot with fire and smoke closing in and only a tiny space to land in. Wow.
Satellite photo of the Woolsey fire. Fire started in the upper right and blew to the lower left. There was a second fire to the left. You can see how the vast majority of the burned area is open space and how it was generally kept out of built up areas. The point at the bottom is Point Dume where a lot of the Malibu houses were lost. You can also see living in those canyons could be a bit of an issue.
At some point I will have to take a drive down Mulholland and see what is left. There are (were?) house dotted all over those hills that are now black.
There does not appear to be a good satellite photo of the northern Camp fire yet, probably because it is just going out now.
Muholland footage by rnickeymouse
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