Grab the Dragon by Its' Tail

DoctorBlade wrote: So... in other words it sounds great but only the holy few will be allowed on the course? I'm confused.

The very letter of the rules say you need to hold an SCCA TT license and have a log-booked car.

There are some vague mentionings deeper within that say a TT Permit and a properly prepped SP/SM solo car may enter, so long as you have "full safety gear."

I'm not attending this year, was just looking to see if anyone here had actually attained a TT permit, and if so, what they had to do, for the most part.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

Here's a link to the 2011 Rulebook for PDX (including hillclimbs) and it lists all the details:

http://cms.scca.com/documents/2011%20Tech/2011%20Time%20Trials%20Complete%20Book%20-%20PDX.pdf

It's a 167-page pdf document so take copious notes while reading it, or invest in lots of paper and toner.

Ok....

Atlanta area GRM'ers, who is riding with me up to the Dragon's Tail to spectate? I will have 3 empty seats in the ZAV (incase of a unplanned rapture, we will be ok), so load up on some beer and bring the seats... LETS GO!!

If everything goes swimmingly with the Escort, i'll be down to spectate.

I know my friend got his SCCA license using someone else's car. He did it in exchange for being the guy's engineer at the SCCA events he partakes in...

Hey gang... the road is not Hwy 129, it's Santeetlah Rd, which is off Joyce Kilmer Rd. It's through a national forest, so no homes, intersections etc. It's a 4 mile long dead-end road. We're using about half of the road for the course.

See if this link works - http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Joyce+Kilmer+Memorial,+Robbinsville,+NC+28771&aq=0&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=59.119059,112.060547&ie=UTF8&hq=Joyce+Kilmer+Memorial,+Robbinsville,+NC+28771&ll=35.37222,-83.90233&spn=0.030199,0.054717&z=15

As others have said, street cars are not allowed to run unless they have safety equipment. We've had folks run CSP Miata's, WRX's, MR2's, etc with roll bars, a race seat, harness and fire bottle... with full driver safety equipment. The car needs its log book and must pass tech. The driver must NOT be a novice to time trials. To get the level license needed you have to compete in a certain number of "flat track" Time Trail events (Roebling, CMP, Road Atlanta, etc) or have a road race license.

We will have spectator areas on course and will be shuttling people up and down the course to the spectator areas. It a tight 2-lane road, so there is NO room for spectators to park on course.

CCR-SCCA has been doing hillclimbs for A LONG TIME!!

I'll be there working timing and doing whatever else...

I'll try to remember to check back in and see if anyone has questions. If you do, let me know!

Rich Little

CCR SCCA

BTW, hit our forum for discussion of the event and more info - http://ccrscca.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=tt

Solo cars don't have log books, though... is there an exception to that rule for said CSP Miatas?

no exception ... re-read his post...

As others have said, street cars are not allowed to run unless they have safety equipment. We've had folks run CSP Miata's, WRX's, MR2's, etc with roll bars, a race seat, harness and fire bottle... with full driver safety equipment. The car needs its log book and must pass tech. The driver must NOT be a novice to time trials. To get the level license needed you have to compete in a certain number of "flat track" Time Trail events (Roebling, CMP, Road Atlanta, etc) or have a road race license.

the bold print explains the additions to a SP / SM car that would have to be in place... by saying the SP / SM cars are acceptable he's meaning that the level of suspension prep that is needed .... my STS CRX was built to run TT and hill climb (4 point roll bar, fire bottle, and log book) ... so even ST cars can qualify ... prep wise... for hill climb if the rest of the safety gear is included

the reason for all the emphasis on the safety gear (both for the driver and the car) is because of how dangerous a hill climb is... many of them don't have any guard rails to slow your short trip back to the starting line if you have a great big OOPS

I think the confusion is, how does one get a non-roadrace car logbooked. Solo doesn't issue logbooks, road race doesn't tech solo cars.

DILYSI Dave wrote: I think the confusion is, how does one get a non-roadrace car logbooked. Solo doesn't issue logbooks, road race doesn't tech solo cars.

This is my main confusion right there.

I'm not worried about the safety stuff, i understand those rules, have no problem with them, and would have that equipment installed both on the car and my person.

To get a log book for a car you'll have to hunt down a SCCA road race tech inspector in your area. They can issue a log book and inspect the car.

I know of some in Charlotte, Ashville, Greenville / Spartanburg areas. For other areas, you'll have to check with your local region.

Dave, i think i got it.

Basically, you have to get your TT Novice Permit, then go do a PDX, you get your logbook and inspection there.

After you complete your PDX, you have to do a few Club Trials and Track Trials events.

What i don't see in this link is how to "upgrade" your license from Novice to whatever it is you need for Hillclimb.

http://cms.scca.com/documents/2011%20Tech/2011%20Level%201%20-%20PDX.pdf

PS: Oldsaw, your linky no worky.

Actually PDX isn't needed... You can go to the TT school that's held at the Talladega Gran Prix and get your novice license in a weekend.

Read here - http://www.alscca.net/time_trials_view

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote: I think the confusion is, how does one get a non-roadrace car logbooked. Solo doesn't issue logbooks, road race doesn't tech solo cars.

This is my main confusion right there. I'm not worried about the safety stuff, i understand those rules, have no problem with them, and would have that equipment installed both on the car and my person.

To get a car log-booked, it must pass a technical inspection by a certified SCCA scrutineer. A solo car can be log-booked. It just has to meet the requirements as stated in the Time Trial rulebook. For the most part, this means driver safety gear (fire suit, gloves, shoes, helmet), roll bar/cage, and proper fire bottle. But don't confuse a log-book technical inspection with a tech inspection done at a local solo event. They are two quite separate inspections. A log-book car must meet a much more rigorous look-over than just a solo tech inspection.

SEDIV (southeastern division of SCCA) actually allows many of the solo classes to run in their own groups during TT's and hillclimbs. This allows those who wish to run both solo and TT/hillclimb with the same car. But a CSP miata, while not requiring a roll bar/cage in solo, would be required to have one for a TT/hillclimb.

To obtain your TT/hillclimb license, you can do it in one of two ways....

1-Submit a Novice Time Trial form to SCCA along with a medical form and they will provide you with a Novice Time Trial Permit. This allows you to take part in CERTAIN Time Trial events. Once you succesfully complete three, you can send in paperwork for your FULL Time Trial license and then can run in any Time Trial or Hillclimb your heart desires.

2-Take part in a Time Trial school over a weekend, submit paperwork to SCCA and receive your FULL Time Trial license.

As stated previously, you must take part in any SCCA Time Trial/Hillclimb in a log-booked car. No, it does not have to be yours. But what you drive must be log-booked.

lagunamiata wrote: Actually PDX isn't needed... You can go to the TT school that's held at the Talladega Gran Prix and get your novice license in a weekend. Read here - http://www.alscca.net/time_trials_view

This is going to be a lot of traveling. I don't know of any of this stuff actually in my area. Stupid midwest flatlands.

Thanks for the link! Reading now!

e30racer wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote: I think the confusion is, how does one get a non-roadrace car logbooked. Solo doesn't issue logbooks, road race doesn't tech solo cars.

This is my main confusion right there. I'm not worried about the safety stuff, i understand those rules, have no problem with them, and would have that equipment installed both on the car and my person.

To get a car log-booked, it must pass a technical inspection by a certified SCCA scrutineer. A solo car can be log-booked. It just has to meet the requirements as stated in the Time Trial rulebook. For the most part, this means driver safety gear (fire suit, gloves, shoes, helmet), roll bar/cage, and proper fire bottle. But don't confuse a log-book technical inspection with a tech inspection done at a local solo event. They are two quite separate inspections. A log-book car must meet a much more rigorous look-over than just a solo tech inspection. SEDIV (southeastern division of SCCA) actually allows many of the solo classes to run in their own groups during TT's and hillclimbs. This allows those who wish to run both solo and TT/hillclimb with the same car. But a CSP miata, while not requiring a roll bar/cage in solo, would be required to have one for a TT/hillclimb. To obtain your TT/hillclimb license, you can do it in one of two ways.... 1-Submit a Novice Time Trial form to SCCA along with a medical form and they will provide you with a Novice Time Trial Permit. This allows you to take part in CERTAIN Time Trial events. Once you succesfully complete three, you can send in paperwork for your FULL Time Trial license and then can run in any Time Trial or Hillclimb your heart desires. 2-Take part in a Time Trial school over a weekend, submit paperwork to SCCA and receive your FULL Time Trial license. As stated previously, you must take part in any SCCA Time Trial/Hillclimb in a log-booked car. No, it does not have to be yours. But what you drive must be log-booked.

Oh well hell, that's not that bad at all, then!

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

Its really not that hard, but SCCA just seems to find a way to be able to convolute it so that it seems hard. I think the biggest problem is the way SCCA words things. Like once you complete a weekend school, you send in paperwork for a Time Trial Permit. Well, when people read "permit" they tend to think of a "permit". As in, not giving you full allowances of being able to race Time Trials. Well that's not the case and a Time Trial Permit should in my opinion be renamed to a Time Trial License bc that's what it actually is.

And there is no Hillclimb license. Hillclimbs are considered level 4 Time Trials. Once you have a Time Trial LICENSE, you can run anything up and including level 4 hillclimbs.

e30racer wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: Its really not that hard, but SCCA just seems to find a way to be able to convolute it so that it seems hard. I think the biggest problem is the way SCCA words things. Like once you complete a weekend school, you send in paperwork for a Time Trial Permit. Well, when people read "permit" they tend to think of a "permit". As in, not giving you full allowances of being able to race Time Trials. Well that's not the case and a Time Trial Permit should in my opinion be renamed to a Time Trial License bc that's what it actually is. And there is no Hillclimb license. Hillclimbs are considered level 4 Time Trials. Once you have a Time Trial LICENSE, you can run anything up and including level 4 hillclimbs.

Nope, now that you put it that way, it's not hard at all. Hardest part is finding anything close to me.

I'm familiar with SCCA's "lawyer speak" rulebooks. I'm balls deep in a full-prep Solo SMF build right now. Some of the wording is just RIDICULOUS.

But the long and short of it is, once i complete a school and send to SCCA for my "permit," i can do hillclimbs?

Maroon92 wrote: is there such a thing as hillclimb for two wheeled vehicles?

Our local ski area has one or more every year. Maybe not what you are thinking.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

e30racer wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: Its really not that hard, but SCCA just seems to find a way to be able to convolute it so that it seems hard. I think the biggest problem is the way SCCA words things. Like once you complete a weekend school, you send in paperwork for a Time Trial Permit. Well, when people read "permit" they tend to think of a "permit". As in, not giving you full allowances of being able to race Time Trials. Well that's not the case and a Time Trial Permit should in my opinion be renamed to a Time Trial License bc that's what it actually is. And there is no Hillclimb license. Hillclimbs are considered level 4 Time Trials. Once you have a Time Trial LICENSE, you can run anything up and including level 4 hillclimbs.

Nope, now that you put it that way, it's not hard at all. Hardest part is finding anything close to me. I'm familiar with SCCA's "lawyer speak" rulebooks. I'm balls deep in a full-prep Solo SMF build right now. Some of the wording is just RIDICULOUS. But the long and short of it is, once i complete a school and send to SCCA for my "permit," i can do hillclimbs?

depending on your experience and how well you know your RA and the TT leader/boss ... whatever their title is ... you can appeal to them and usually with a check ride at a PDX / TT you can be granted an endorsed TT permit/application which along with your signed off medical paperwork should get you there... at least that's how the local region was going to move me to TT... instead I chose CT (I can't pass the medical right now anyway)

What happened to allowing Rally America licensed rally drivers and Rally America logbooked rally cars?

I think that most of the difficulty is in the difference between..time trial novice permit and a full time trial license. A TT novice permit is the first step and will allow you to get the necessary track time for a license upgrade. A full TT license will allow you to run hill climbs. The way I did it was I went to Little Talladega as a TT novice, ran the required laps in the TT race and attended the school all in the same weekend got signed off by the safety steward. Sent all the paperwork to SCCA and now I can race level 4 events. I will say it is an investment, but the thrill is sooo worth it. Hope this helps.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

Yep. You will be able to do Hill Climbs

e30racer wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: Yep. You will be able to do Hill Climbs

As long as he's got a real rollover structure and a real harness (plus suit & helmet of course), right? I thought the "solo" classes at hillclimbs reffered to their engine/suspension prep, not the safety requirements. I guess my impression of those cars has always been a Solo2 car with an Improved Touring level cage/fire system..