Grassroots bicycling

Ok

As an entry level trail bike, why should I buy a Trek Marlin (Gary Fisher Collection) 29" (From my local bike shop $649) over a box store Mongoose 29" with the same shocks etc for $399 (provided the fit is similar)

The cheapie Mongoose will have inferior (read: weaker) wheels, sloppy brakes, clunky gears, lesser quality bearings in the headset...generally, worse parts all over. Frame would be heavier, welds sloppier etc. The Trek will be built, (and tuned/assembled) to a much higher standard of quality, and will hold up considerably better to actual trail riding. The Trek will also be backed by a better warranty, and you'd likely have the after-sales support of the shop you bought it from.

In reply to Flight Service:

I don't really know... I have about $650 in mine.

Gear packages are the same, both have discs, I can see your bearings and weight arguments, I could give to E36 M3s about welds (as long as they hold)

Well, I stand by the wheels...honestly, that's probably the weakest link. Not all disc brakes are equal, either. A "cheap" disc set-up feels nasty to use, and can't be remedied with adjustments.

In either case, I'd say your money would be better spent choosing carefully, and buying used, (I flog $5000 bikes to customers at work...and have about $700 in my personal bike - purchased used).

my issue is fit, I am so damn tall I am not comfortable on most bikes, so bike store stuff is about where I am at.

Yeah, unfortunately that can be tricky . If you had time to exhaustively shop around, you might get lucky on a closeout model in a big frame that's been sitting on the floor for months...

I think you'd see some value from going to a shop that will take the time to properly fit you on a bike (taking actual measurements rather than having you stand over it and lift up the front wheel or something). You should be more comfortable on a bike that is adjusted to fit you correctly.

You are much better off with the Fisher. I had the 26" version of the Marlin before Trek bought them and it lasted me 6 years without an upgrade (until it was stolen). The Mongoose bikes generally have inferior components, even when they are the "same". There is a reason that people associate Mongoose with Wal Mart now, and it's not just because they are sold there.

Luke wrote: Not all disc brakes are equal, either. A "cheap" disc set-up feels nasty to use, and can't be remedied with adjustments.

I haven't riden bikes much but this. I have read a Mongoose with disc versus a nice bike with disc and on the Mongoose I would have rather have those brakes that grab the wheel.

I don't even mind the Gary Fisher 29" at $650, but I have seen 1 speed road bikes for a $1K!

Not race equipment either. Why?

^^Because people are buyin 'em .

If you're referring to the on-going single-speed/"fixie" hype...in most cases, those bikes are unjustifiably expensive, and relatively easy to replicate DIY at a fraction of the cost.

Mongoose used to make nice bikes back in the early 2000s. Granted, you couldn't just go to Walmart and get them, but they made very near-bulletproof hardtails great for beating the E36 M3 out of in the $500-$800 range.

I don't even remember the model, but back in about... 2002, i had one that i took the Rock Shox Jett off of and threw on a Judy. Had disc brakes, decent midrange components, and beat the hell out of it. Never failed me.

Wasn't the lightest thing in the world, but i remember expecting a much bigger improvement than i got going to the Kona Stuff that followed.

I started mountain biking on a Walmart Mongoose around 2000. At the time it cost about $200 It was an aluminum frame and weighed close to 45 lbs. I had to adjust the brakes every.time.I.rode. Before the year was out I had folded up a rear wheel.. really, it folded in half as I pedaled UP a hill, just from torque. I could have bought a replacement wheel of similar quality, but it would have just kept happening. Instead I bought the nicest STEEL framed specialized at the local store, I think it weighed 30lbs. I think it was $450. Without any extra cost, the store swapped out the stock wheels for stronger ones since I was then 300+lbs. I rode that bike for years with no major issues.

Why are bike store bikes better? 3 main reasons-

replaceable components: many bottom end bikes are built with house components that can't be bought separately if they fail, and are built to non-standard specs so they can't be swapped.

Weight - cheap bikes are built heavier for a lot of reasons. It's cheaper in materials and assembly, and protects from failure lawsuits even when used FAR outside intended purpose

Fit - bikes are like shoes. One size does not fit all. The wrong size is uncomfortable and will make riding much less efficient and enjoyable, and can cause you lifelong repetitive motion injuries. Have you ever SEEN a size listed on a big box bike?

The performance difference is a world of diminishing returns, much like cars. The difference between a rusted out Ford Ranchero and a FRS/BRZ is HUGE. The difference between an FRS and late model Z06 is less so. Between a Z06 and a Ferrari takes a pro driver to really make use of. They will all get you from your house to the grocery store, but they behave somewhat differently and make you feel differently on the trip

I'm happy spending what is mid range money for nice bikes because I can feel the difference. I'm probably not a good enough rider to notice the difference between my bike and a $15k Tour de France level bike, and Lance Armstrong would still whip my ass on a Huffy (doping or not.)

Is any of those WORTH the money? That's a personal question. The price of a Lotus Elise is a joke at $25k for your average appliance driver that is happy in a $5000 Camry with more cup holders.

This all sort of goes back to the same discussions about whether or not Porsches and Z06s are 'Grassroots.' For some yes, for some no.

yeah, I remember a buddy of mine rocking a mongoose with an Indy C and STX components. It was a good quality bike. Nowadays, it's not like that at all though.

Here is my take on the wally world/dept store bikes-

The frames are fine, and the components will work, BUT... and this is a very large BUT- the inherent issues come when the stoned high school kid who knows nothing about a bicycle or how it works is assembling it for you. Building a bike is an art, much like assembling an engine. You can bolt an engine up, and it may work... but you give someone who knows what the berk they're doing and I can guarantee you that the differences in performance will be dramatic.

This is why I'd always recommend the following- Either go out and buy the $300 low end bike from an actual bike shop, or buy the dept store bike with the same components in the box, and pay a bike shop to build it. Go whichever way is cheaper.

I cannot stress enough though- riding on a big box store assembled bike is like straddling a stick of dynomite. Something will break or go wrong, and you could potentially get really hurt if you aren't careful about it. I have a cousin who can vouch- she compound fractured her radius and ulna in both forearms due to a Walmart bike brake failure a couple years ago... IMHO, the peace of mind of the bike shop build is more than worth the $$.

Flight Service wrote: I don't even mind the Gary Fisher 29" at $650, but I have seen 1 speed road bikes for a $1K! Not race equipment either. Why?

Handbuilt frame?

High-end frame?

High-end wheelset?

As I said--my Ultegra wheelset for my main roadie was $650--and that's "cheap" in the roadie realm.

Singlespeeds are more fun when you build them yourself, though IMHO.

I'd spring for the extra on the Trek, too. There will likely be better drivetrain components (shifters/derailleurs) in play there.

I think Tektro mechanical discs are decent brakes, though. They've come a long way through trickledown.

I was a big box bike tech (Decathlon and Dick's Sporting Goods), but I knew what I was doing. I corrected some horrific builds from other stores regularly. Big box stores (Dick's) think that if you take a 2-hour training on a computer, you're suddenly a competent wrench. That is SCARY.

golfduke wrote: I cannot stress enough though- riding on a big box store assembled bike is like straddling a stick of dynomite. Something will break or go wrong, and you could potentially get really hurt if you aren't careful about it. I have a cousin who can vouch- she compound fractured her radius and ulna in both forearms due to a Walmart bike brake failure a couple years ago... IMHO, the peace of mind of the bike shop build is more than worth the $$.

I'm surprised there haven't been massive lawsuits over this stuff. I know that target gets x amount of hours to build x amount of bikes according to the money made that week. That gives their "techs" something like 20 minutes per bike to get them "built".

I regularly look at the bikes in Target when I'm there just to marvel at the flagrant fouls involved in their assembly.

Sorry about your cousin--that is AWFUL.

gamby wrote:

Flight Service wrote: I don't even mind the Gary Fisher 29" at $650, but I have seen 1 speed road bikes for a $1K! Not race equipment either. Why?

Handbuilt frame? High-end frame? High-end wheelset? As I said--my Ultegra wheelset for my main roadie was $650--and that's "cheap" in the roadie realm. Singlespeeds are more fun when you build them yourself, though IMHO. I'd spring for the extra on the Trek, too. There will likely be better drivetrain components (shifters/derailleurs) in play there. I think Tektro mechanical discs are decent brakes, though. They've come a long way through trickledown. I was a big box bike tech (Decathlon and Dick's Sporting Goods), but I knew what I was doing. I corrected some horrific builds from other stores regularly. Big box stores (Dick's) think that if you take a 2-hour training on a computer, you're suddenly a competent wrench. That is SCARY.

nope

nope

nope

specs read all normal.

In reply to Flight Service:

I need to see this bike. Something isn't adding up. A few years ago I saw a drop bar singlespeed (with brakes--a freewheel singlespeed) in an LBS. I can't remember the brand, but it was $700.

Shortly after that, I started getting lustful thoughts about a singlespeed. Built one in 2011.

My buddy just posted this, relevant to the topic at hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESTnuHcATtY

Even I have limits. I was in a LBS today and they were working on a fancy Cannondale Scalpel Carbon - $11,000... what do you get for all that money? 100mm travel, front and rear - 21 lbs.

Most expensive bike I ever sold was a custom triplet with a stowaway frame and cases for travel, similar to this one, except painted to look like a jersey cow complete with udders on the boom tube.

Any guesses what that one sold for?

gamby wrote:

golfduke wrote: I cannot stress enough though- riding on a big box store assembled bike is like straddling a stick of dynomite. Something will break or go wrong, and you could potentially get really hurt if you aren't careful about it. I have a cousin who can vouch- she compound fractured her radius and ulna in both forearms due to a Walmart bike brake failure a couple years ago... IMHO, the peace of mind of the bike shop build is more than worth the $$.

I'm surprised there haven't been massive lawsuits over this stuff. I know that target gets x amount of hours to build x amount of bikes according to the money made that week. That gives their "techs" something like 20 minutes per bike to get them "built". I regularly look at the bikes in Target when I'm there just to marvel at the flagrant fouls involved in their assembly. Sorry about your cousin--that is AWFUL.

It's not confined to big box stores. I once applied to a LBS as a tech. To try me out, they had me assemble a bike out of the box. I set it up properly, brakes and drivetrain properly adjusted. I was told "too slow" and given another to do. On the way out, I took a closer look at the bikes on the racks. Not a single one was ready to ride, they were all slapped together into a reasonable facsimile of a bike. This was a major, well-established bike store in a fairly bike-centric city, too.

Needless to say, I didn't take the job. I went elsewhere.

gamby wrote: In reply to Flight Service: I need to see this bike. Something isn't adding up. A few years ago I saw a drop bar singlespeed (with brakes--a freewheel singlespeed) in an LBS. I can't remember the brand, but it was $700. Shortly after that, I started getting lustful thoughts about a singlespeed. Built one in 2011.

this is from my bike shop down the street.

2013 Trek District

Trek Marlin (the one I was thinking about getting)

Look closely at the District. It's a Gates carbon belt-drive bike - no chain. All those bikes are big $.