Grassroots Railroad Sports?

Yesterday marked 43 years since the Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific ceased operation, assassinated by unions, investors and the government in the midst of a successful rebirth.

Today marked 47 years since Conrail was created, a massive undertaking by the government to prevent a collapse of mostly northeastern lines (the Ann Arbor was the odd, nearly forgotten oddball)

Although it still wears it's original road name and number, this is Conrail #8354, a Baldwin DS-4-4-1000 switcher. Depending on how they were counted, Conrail began with 4,877 to over 5,000 locomotives. Of this number, 10% (493 units) were not serviceable. In 10 months, the unserviceable list ballooned to 775 locomotives. Complicating matters, the fleet was 73% EMD, 11% Alco, and 11% GE, and was accented with 31 Baldwin locomotives and 160 electric units. Of those 31 Baldwins, only 17 were "pure" Baldwins (There were some Erie-Lackawanna road switchers that had been cut down into slugs and some EMD-repowered VO-1000s from Reading). Of the 17 unrebuilt, unmodified Baldwins, only one of those was actually operational, with the other sixteen being Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines switchers and AS-16s that were stored out of service. That operational Baldwin was formerly Ironton Railroad #751. 

Not to be confused with the Detroit, Toledo & Ironton, the Ironton Railroad was a Pennsylvania shortline that extended from a connection with the Lehigh Valley at Coplay, PA to Ironton, PA, a distance of about 5.5 miles, as well as a 2 mile branch from Omrod, PA to Siegersville, PA, and a 3.9 mile branch from Egypt, PA to Lower Coplay, PA. Originally built to transport iron ore that was being mined in the area, it later shifted it's traffic heavily to moving Portland cement after Mesabi Range iron ore became favored by foundries. In 1923, the Ironton became jointly owned by both the Lehigh Valley and the Reading and operated using leased Camelback Consolidations from the Reading. In 1948, it retired the steam locomotives and replaced it with two Baldwin DS-4-4-1000 switchers, #750 and #751. As traffic declined, branches were abandoned, the mainline was cut back, and eventually the #750 was sold off, leaving the Ironton with just the #751. When Conrail was being formed, since the Ironton was owned by both the Reading and the Lehigh Valley, it was also incorporated into Conrail. That meant that Ironton #751 was also moved onto the Conrail roster, and since it was well taken care of by the Lehigh Valley shops, it was actually put into service by Conrail, making it the sole operational pure Baldwin on their roster. It ran for a little over a year, mostly hanging out at Bethlehem shuffling around the engine facilities or working Allentown Yard, but was never relettered, renumbered or repainted. According to the crews that operated Conrail #8354, it was in excellent shape and ran really well, but it was an oddball machine that Conrail was not interested in keeping. It was retired and scrapped in the spring of 1977, and by 1984, Conrail had abandoned the entirety of the former Ironton and yanked up all the rails.

Conrail #8534 at the ex-Lehigh Valley facilities in Bethlehem, PA. The Erie-Lackawanna and Penn Central GP35s in the background are to be expected, the C&NW GP9 ahead of them is a little less exected. In the early days of Conrail, they were leasing pretty much anything with an EMD 567 that they could get their hands on to get by, and that included a bunch of C&NW power.

Ironton #751 at Bethlehem in the Conrail era, getting ready to head out on a run. Despite being jointly owned by the LV, as well as the Reading, their motive power tended to lean more towards the Reading side, as shown by the dark green paint with yellow handrails and lettering. Conrail was desperate for anything that ran in the early days, and some of the oddball stuff, like 244-powered Alcos or the ex-L&HR C420s or the #751 here, were operated under the intent that they were to be run until a major failure retired them. There was to be no paint, no overhauls, and no major maintenance, and when it died, it was sent off for scrap. The #751 made it about a year before it was sidelined and cut up at Altoona.

"they were to be run until a major failure retired them. There was to be no paint, no overhauls, and no major maintenance, and when it died, it was sent off for scrap. "

What a waste of resources! 

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

 

We need to talk trains the next time we meet up.

We are supposed to be in your area at the end of July.  My wife is going to go to some big MS bridal convention to peddle her services and I would much prefer to discuss trains!  Kiddo would enjoy either. 

Is this thread a "safe" place to discuss model trains as well as 1:1 scale or should things smaller than 1:1 scale be moved elsewhere.  I've been a model railroader most of my life.  It's probably my oldest hobby.  I had the rather large obligatory kid in an attic HO layout I made in Jr. High.  I had a large layout dad built when I was a kid that was lost in the mom /dad divorce due to lack of space.  My kid brother actually got the nice layout when our local hobby store went under years ago, etc.  I dabbled a bit since I was in and out of the Navy too.  I'm now very inspired by certain modelers and have settled on a small branch line that I can reasonably model.  I had two branch lines I was picking from one was a 6 mile route and the other is 19 miles.  I think I've settled on the 19 mile route in the desert town where I went to HS.  I'm fascinated that this section of an old railroad is still in service moving traffic today.  I can post ideas, concept, inspirational stuff I'm looking at and progress as I do it.  My daughter is super artistic and she enjoys helping me and she also likes running trains.  She gets to practice art, learn some electrical things, solve puzzles (operations), and spend time with dad.  We actually have a small portable railroad we are building for her that needs more love.  She likes the blue and white Rock Island livery most of anything she has seen so far. 

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

We should be here then, barring any major hurricanes.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Have you taken your daughter up to the delta to see the reformed Rock Island in operation?

I'd be interested in any scale train info.  I didn't realize how interesting this all is.

Long time reader / lurker on this thread.

RPCX 391 was retired in 1967 as passenger train service died off, it had many owners since; one person who purchased the historic car placed it on a cement slab and used it as office space in Minnesota.  Now it's a tiny home.

TheMagicRatchet said:

"they were to be run until a major failure retired them. There was to be no paint, no overhauls, and no major maintenance, and when it died, it was sent off for scrap. "

 

What a waste of resources! 

Most of the stuff treated that way was worn-out oddball junk that Conrail didn't plan to keep anyways. Especially because Conrail planned to abandon and sell off a lot of the duplicate track that they had, which would reduce their motive power needs, and they had big orders for new power, like SD50s and B23-7s and GP15-1s, to try and rationalize their roster. Like the #751, it was built by a manufacturer that had been out of the business for 20 years, it had a prime mover that wasn't great when new, all sorts of weird unobtanium Westinghouse electrical gear, and it was the only operational locomotive of it's brand on their entire roster. In the case of the Alco RS-3s, once the 244s expired, they were taken to Dewitt, where they had the Alco engines yanked out and Conrail took the EMD V12 567s out of the E-units that they had inherited and didn't need, and then were converted to "Dewitt Geeps". The nine L&HR C420s were in pretty rough shape, because the L&HR was in severe financial trouble after the Poughkeepsie Bridge burned (accidental or intentional, that one's for you to decide) and severed their link to Penn Central, plus their C420s lacked dynamic brakes, limiting their usefulness, and they were the only C420s on the Conrail roster (Lehigh Valley had had some, but D&H had absconded with those). There's actually a funny story there, in that some employee at the Bethlehem facilities missed the memo and ended up having C420 #2072 repainted in Conrail Quality Blue with tiny patch lettering. Supposedly said employee was called to the carpet and screamed at for wasting company resources on a locomotive that was not going to hang around.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Model railroading is fine. I had an N-scale layout as a kid that I don't really know where it came from. And I had an 027 Lionel set that I believe is still at my parents and that I should grab. Maybe one day I'll get back into it. I'd really like to do a model of the D&H in the '74-'77-ish era. At that point it was before the big 6-axle exodus, so they still had the SD45s, U30Cs, and C628s, they also had the Alco PAs and the Baldwin RF-16s, and the RS-11s, RS-3s and RS-32s were also still running around. Plus there was the Lehigh Valley-painted C420s and GP38-2s, the Reading-painted GP39-2s, the leased ex-Long Island high-nose C420s, and leased/run-through power from Norfolk & Western and Erie-Lackawanna. And at the tail end of that era, you had rainbow era Conrail right next door, with Conrail blue, Penn Central black, Reading green and yellow, Erie-Lackawanna gray and yellow and red, and Lehigh Valley red.

My N scale plans involve big 6 axle locos moving coal.

My HO branch line will be much smaller in concept.  The branch only operates 3 locos.  One is an SW9 that started life with Lehigh Valley, went to Conrail and then was bought by the small branch line around 79.  It's the locomotive I remember seeing in high school.  
 

Their other locos are a former SF / BNSF GP35 and an SW1500 that I'm not sure where it came from, yet....  I will see if I can figure that out too.

An example of that N&W run-through power over the D&H on symbol BFOA (Buffalo-Oak Island). Despite the fact that there is a solid block of N&W power in the lead, this is a D&H train. The N&W had ended up in control of the D&H and the E-L in 1968, as a hangover provision from the 1964 N&W/Wabash/Nickel Plate/P&WV merger, and continued to help propping up the D&H after the Conrail merger, since the D&H was their friendly connection to New England and Canada. In the lead you have GE C30-7 #8078, which is in the rare Tuscan red and gold lettering livery that N&W revived in the late '70s. This paint scheme had been used on their steam generator-equipped GP9s that replaced the Class J 4-8-4s, and Bob Claytor had one SD40-2 and six GE C30-7s painted in this paint scheme for use on office car specials and excursions. Since they weren't being used in that capacity all the time, they were assigned to freight use, and in this case we have one of the C30-7s, #8078, leading high-nose GP30 #522, and, I believe, high-nose GP30 #224 on the Delaware & Hudson through Schenectady, NY on November 15th, 1984. By this point, Norfolk Southern had sold the D&H to Guilford Rail for the princely sum of $500,000 for everything, almost a year ago, but was still playing nice with the D&H, as was Chessie Systems, because they needed them. Of course, that date also means that this is all technically Norfolk Southern power, but you'd be hard-pressed to tell the merger was two years old at this point.

Another BFOA freight with another of the six Tuscan Red C30-7s, this time #8077, on the lead. Getting trackage rights into Oak Island was a good idea on paper but never panned out as hoped. They had to pay to exercise trackage rights, the agreement prevented them from pursuing customers along the route, there were some systems restrictions on the D&H Penn Division that presented operational headaches, and ultimately the only way that the D&H could be competitive over the same haul as Conrail was to operate at a severe loss.

This article about a train ride through the Smoky Mountains was featured on the local news site.

If you're around that area in Western NC, maybe give it a shot. Couple it with a Tail of the Dragon trip? 

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) :

I was actually in Bryson City about six years ago when I went to Miatas At The Gap, but failed to ride the Great Smokey Mountain Railroad. I just had too much going on that weekend. I went back to the Tail of the Dragon in fall of '18, but didn't get down that way, and that was the trip that went pear-shaped when I exploded the transmission in the Miata some 900 miles from home. I'd like to get back down to the Tail Of The Dragon someday and get redemption with the Miata (I never got a run up the road with the new supercharged engine, between weather, the clutch starting to slip, and then the transmission exploding) but I don't trust it that far anymore and I'm not sure I could do a 13.5 hour trip in that car again anyways. It's also only a three hour drive west from Bryson City to the Tennesee Valley Railroad Museum, which operates Southern #4501 and Southern #630. The only issue is that neither of them are very clear when they operate their steam locomotives, I'd kinda hate to drive all the way down there and find that they aren't running them at either.

GSMR runs one of those USATC S-160 2-8-0s and they've done a pretty good job of "Americanizing" it. One of the previous owners sent guys down to Mexico, where there was still a lot of American steam kicking around, and they brought back parts, and some guys who were veterans of other US railroads and had taken souveneirs off of engines on the dead lines also contributed parts as well. I know it has Texas & Pacific air pump shields and a cab and tenders from a Rock Island Mikado, and there are reportedly St. Louis Southwestern, Union Pacific and Kansas City Southern bits to her as well. GSMR also built a taller smokestack and a more normal dome and altered the cab a little as well. It's definitely still an oddly-proportioned beast, you look at it and something is just not quite right (I think it needs a smokebox extension, and the tender lettering is kinda funky as well.), but it's better than as-built.

GSMR has the same issue that Western Maryland Scenic Railroad had as well. They have some pretty grueling grades and really high ridership, resulting in long trains, so they need a more powerful engine, but they also have some pretty tight curves that precludes a much larger engine. Western Maryland Scenic Railroad ended up buying that C&O Mallet, but GSMR just ends up running these long 15-20 car trains with a pair of diesels shoving on the tail end. Makes you wonder how much work the #1702 is actually doing. They have another steam locomotive, Southern 2-8-0 #722, but they tore that apart decades ago for a restoration that never happened, and it sits scattered around the Dillsboro shops. I'm not sure that Southern #722 is actually much more powerful than the #1702 either.

One of the Tuscan Red C30-7s along with the sole SD40-2, #6175, at the engine facilities in Williamson, West Virginia

N&W #8080 in coal drag service with an SD45 and a GP38-2

In reply to NickD :

SD45s moving coal!  Now we're talking RRing.  I think if the average person knew how much coal traveled by rail to light up their lives they'd be shocked,  

So let's talk about the branch line I'm considering modeling.  I went to high school in Pecos, Tx.  It was quite an experience after growing up in San Antonio and San Angelo, but it led to a college scholarship.  Anyway the local RR Pecos Valley Southern began operations in 1910.  When I was in High School it still moved freight.  And today under management from Watch, it is still in use.  
 

The engine I recall seeing was a dingy looking SW switcher.  It looked like this.

Here is another photo.

Notice the 8657 numbering on the light housing?  That was Conrail's designation during their ownership.

Originally this SW900 was built for Lehigh Valley.  It looked like this shortly before Conrail acquired it. 

it was originally built in 1957 long before I was born.  
 

Guess what is still in service today?  Care to see how it looks?  Here is WATCO 950 still in service in Pecos TX today.

This will be the first locomotive I model for the branch.  I need to get a HO scale SW8 / SW900 preferably with digital control and sound.  Then I will paint and customize it to improve its appearance.  
 

I have a good source of information, photos and track configuration to reasonably model a branch line this small on a long shelf.  Real railroads run point to point.  The service facilities of the PVS are rather unremarkable as is most of the RR.  It might even be within my modeling capabilities.  

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to NickD :

SD45s moving coal!  Now we're talking RRing.  I think if the average person knew how much coal traveled by rail to light up their lives they'd be shocked,  

A couple years ago, I rode an RDC charter trip on the Reading & Northern that was chartered by the Society of Industrial Archaeology and the National Museum of Industrial History. There were a lot of non-railroad types who were part of the SIA, and so one of the R&N passenger department honchos was giving a description of the R&N and it's traffic base, and mentioned how anthracite coal was a major part of it's traffic (They even use the old DL&W slogan of "The Road of Anthracite"). One of the riders asked if the R&N was worried about a major part of their income potentially falling out of favor, due to political climate and the push to get rid of coal for power generation and home heating. He explained that actually, very little of their anthracite goes towards home heating, and none of it goes towards power generation. The vast majority of their coal traffic actually goes for metallurgical use, it provides the carbon content in steel manufacturing. He explained that no one has even come close to figuring out how to replace coal in that process yet, so they're quite safe there. As he phrased it "The problem with replacing oil and coal is that Mother Nature really did her homework with the stuff, and it's tough to find replacements." R&N has also dived heavily into moving frac sand for Marcellus Shale, they built a huge transload facility in Tunkhannock and are moving 50-60 car trains of sand. The whole brew-up in Ukraine and Russia has driven both the frac sand and anthracite coal traffic up on the R&N the past year.

Of course, of all of R&N's customers, none is more important than the Yuengling Brewery in Pottsville, PA. Yes, America's oldest brewery is served by the Road of Anthracite, and the R&N even runs RDC trips from Tamaqua and Reading up to Pottsville to tour the brewery.

Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) said:

This article about a train ride through the Smoky Mountains was featured on the local news site.

If you're around that area in Western NC, maybe give it a shot. Couple it with a Tail of the Dragon trip? 

This was just added to a potential list of things to do this summer.  If we do, I will share photos.