If you were raised religious but are not now, why not?

In reply to sana :

When? Before the white man arrived? Or that brief period between Columbus showing up and the pilgrims seeking religious freedom leaving England to come here to worship as they saw fit? 

It may have been taken over by people who call themselves Christian despite their actions, but it was never a country based around any particular religion. 

Edit for context: there was a post from someone's sock puppet account (that appears to have been bombed thanks mods) trying to stir up trouble that declared "America has always been a Christian nation", this post was in response to that. 

I grew up attending a Methodist church, about 350 members. Attended through high school. Aside from having met my wife there in 7th grade, I never found any particular comfort or affinity from Church, Sunday school or vacation bible school, etc. I thought the people were nice, the "fellowship" aspect was a good.

Went to college and moved out of my parents house. Church didn't resonate with me so I never went back except for my wedding - mostly in deference to my parents.  (They're quite nice and they still actively attend church and like it).

My kids have been to a church service a handful of times in their lives (with friends or grandparents) and my mom was disappointed that they weren't baptized.. but we're atheists. We just don't publicize it because we live in the south.

... if there was a non religious Sunday morning book club that had good fellowship activities, I'd probably join.

Wow. A lot of food for thought here and that is a large reason why I love these forums.

I was raised Baptist. Forced to go to church until I was a teenager, then went religiously(pun intended) to youth group(Wednesdays) until about the age of 17 but never on Sundays. I've seen too much to not believe there is a higher power of some sort, things work too well until Man gets involved. What I have learned in the time it took me to turn 50, my current age, I can distill down to one bar a Christian rapper put in a song from around 1991. God creates, man just perverts it. Basically, everything I currently think boils down to that. Intelligence out there, souls exist eternally and choose how they exist locally and some are indwelt in human meat sacks for a time but for the experience not because they are slave to anything. Long story short, what Jesus teaches is true but has still been misconstrued by humanity and has led me to completely reject the church due to humanity not being able to do anything religious coherent over time. The Bible was written by men, I think somewhere along the way when 99% of humans were dirt poor they figured out the church could exist if they convinced every believer to give 10% of their wealth to it and the greed grew from there so much that it became cannon.

I did do research into other religions when I was younger including Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Jewish, Muslim and Hinduism and all I could conclude was people desire power over others, and will stop at nothing to achieve that. Not everyone of course, 99% of people just want to live and let live and will use any means necessary to achieve that, and I think that goes exactly counter to what actually exists. 

I'm a little sad the other thread got locked because I enjoy hearing other people's beliefs and discussing both belief and theology. I was born into a Roman Catholic family and attended private Catholic school from K-8. Our church had Latin mass twice a week, I read multiple versions of the Bible cover to cover and even did Confirmation. I was at church every Sunday and was often a reader (one of the normies who read one of the scriptures at one point the Mass). I had a very solid faith, community, and family.

Then I joined the military and saw other countries. Poor countries. War torn countries. Not Christian countries. I saw people who were happy being tortured and taken advantage of by a church. I met Muslims and Pagans. I learned about other religions and studied them. I have seen massive gilded Cathedrals towering over slums of the poor, battle sites where entire populations were slaughtered wholesale in the name of a god, and some of the kindest, best humans I've ever known been called sinners and worse for being born not cis-gender heterosexual. There is something about organizing beliefs into a formal religion that creates power and that power is seemingly always corrupted. 

I came to the conclusion that all organized religion is bad. Some are actually evil and some are grifters, but they are all bad. Let me be clear, the beliefs are good. The spirituality is good. The religion is bad. There is not one single religion I have found that has not engaged in at least one war of faith and killed "non-believers". (Side note, I discovered an amazingly good sci-fi author who has a large series where religion but not faith has been outlawed as part of my spiritual research and it's very interesting.)

So I lost faith. For awhile I lost all faith and became agnostic and maybe even atheist. Since then I have observed too many things that make me personally believe that *gestures wildly* something is out there. The events around my step-mother's death were certainly hair-raising and some of the foreshadowing dreams I get are unnerving. I do not know if it is one god, or multiple gods, or if the universe is sentient, or if we all are reabsorbed into the hive mind, or if reincarnation is it, or if it's all true. I don't know, but I am sure that self-aware tapioca piloting a ambulatory meat sack is not all it appears to be. 

These days I find more solace, comfort, and guidance in spiritualties like the various Native American beliefs, Buddhism, and Shintoism. I try to be kind, honest, and accepting. I do not fault people for their beliefs or spirituality even if I do not believe their religion should be allowed to exist. I wish some religions could say that about others.

I grew up Methodist. The internal politics of the church that I saw in high school started turning me away then the actions of some of the on campus church groups and the people in them in college finished turning me away from the church. My parents and my wife's parents complaining about the current internal politics of the church keep me away as well as some of the beliefs of some of the loudest among the church.

I grew up Protestant (United Church of Christ).  I'm not an atheist, but I am in no way a Christian anymore, either.  It's important to note as you read this that this is MY experience and has nothing to do with anyone else.  I'm not a church-basher.  I never understood why some people (Bill Maher, looking at you) take issue with religious texts and therefore jump to the conclusion that simply because they don't believe THAT text, ipso facto God can't exist.  I mean if I tell you that the new Chevy Volt comes with a V12, you'd call bullE36 M3, but you wouldn't use that as a rationale for why chevy never existed because that tidbit about them isn't true.  God can exist without being the one specific god in one specific text that you don't agree with.  Also, in your brain, god might not exist.  That's cool too.

In hindsight, I never really had "the faith" to begin with.  I played the part and believed all the things I was told, but it never took root I suppose.  I saw others around me having real (and fake) spiritual experiences and remember thinking that I never even really had a fake one.  Once I started getting older and a bit more critical in my thinking, some of the contradictions and justifications just became too great to swallow.  I am now 48 and finding myself having to un-do all of the tacit and implicit biases, discriminatory mindsets, and hateful permissions that the (my) church experience gave me.  I look back at all the not-so-sensitive jokes, comments, or phrases I've spoken in my life wondering how many people in earshot felt marginalized by them.  Cringeworthy.

I've never felt closer to [insert maker/higher power/god  here] than I ever was with the church in the way.  I felt like a huge rock was tied to my ankle preventing me from actually learning how existence actually works.  I strayed from the flock, so to speak, which is disappointing and frightening for the shepherd, but it turns out it's pretty cool for the lamb that got away once he realized that the wolves were just a parable.

But you will never hear me bash any of you for your religious choices.  To me, every person makes choices and has their own path in their life.  How they choose to practice their faith is just as valid as the next's... but the important caveat is that it is YOUR (a general "your," not anyone here) personal faith.   Your personal faith does not give you the right to make life harder for the people and groups you don't agree with.  I'm a pacifist and I have never lifted a hand to another human in my life, but that resolve gets tested frequently.

Here's the point.  Either god exists or she doesn't.  Not my job to convince anyone of anything.  Regardless of whether or not we or I believe in a god, there are two basic possible outcomes:

- There is a god which may or may not mean there is an afterlife
- There isn't a god... which may or may not mean there is an afterlife.

I find it pointless to stress about it until I'm dead... at which point I may or may not even exist.  I'll let you know if I exist after death.  Look for a post from DecayingCurtis if I die.

Have had a lot of challenges relatively recently to what I thought I knew about what I thought I knew.

No longer really interested in "the church;" I consider myself "non-denominational."

Still consider myself a "man of faith," and am a whole lot more tolerant of other views and approaches to this that and the other thing.  I actually really enjoy hearing "why" and "why not" from others.  I'll test it all in my head, and embrace for myself what makes sense and toss what doesn't.

Nobody has it all and is "right."  We could ALL be "wrong." (big grin)

Curtis- it appears you have defined God as Shroedingers cat. I love it. 

I'll try to keep this respectful, without passing judgment on anyone.

I grew up in a Presbyterian and Southern Baptist household.  My mother is an ordained Presbyterian Minister, my father was the devout Southern Baptist.  I grew up in the church, was surrounded by it, but never really believed in it or had faith.  It was more about the community of it, the people, the places and activities of it that I can look back on fondly.

I grew up in the church with my first wife, we were in the same preschool and Sunday school classes.  We were married in a chapel with a non denominational service that my mother wrote for us.  It didn't feel necessary to include religion in our lives, we baptized our son out of a sense of obligation, but it was meaningless to me outside of that.  Out of my parents eight grandchildren, my son is still the only one baptized, both my siblings are also atheist.

Fast forward to today.  My second wife also grew up in the church, her father was a lay minister.  Neither of us have been to church in at least 20 years for me, 15 years for her.  Life experiences, tragedy and heartbreak lead us to feel there is no good to come from religion, just disappointment and discrimination.  It doesn't hold the answers we seek or need.

I have many friends at work that are devout Ethiopian orthodox Christians.  I love these people to death, they are kind and friendly, debates are common, though very respectful.  As an atheist in my adulthood, religion plays very little role in my life, but having a very educated mother that taught me much in the ways of religion, I can respect that religion and values found in it have always been vastly different from person to person.  As individually different as the person's that hold them.

I'll end this with a joke/quote, not sure who the original author of it was, "Religion has brought a great deal of comfort and peace to people in a difficult world, a world that has always been torn apart by strife caused by religion."

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

- There is a god which may or may not mean there is an afterlife
- There isn't a god... which may or may not mean there is an afterlife.

I find it pointless to stress about it until I'm dead... at which point I may or may not even exist.  I'll let you know if I exist after death.  Look for a post from DecayingCurtis if I die.

Yup. If hypothetically there's some cosmic power, it's too far beyond my limited ability to comprehend to even be worth trying. A gerbil would have an easier time understanding my whims and my desires for how it should live it's life than I would some omnipotent omniscient whatever.

I try to live my life in such a way that I wouldn't live it any differently whether there are any gods or life after death.

It's easy to blame religion as something that leads people to do horrible things to other people. I'm not sure if it actually causes that. Humans are very tribal and really good at fighting between tribes and being horrible to people who don't fit within "our" group.

If religion didn't exist, people would still find something arbitrary to divide 'us' from 'them'. The Sneetches with stars would always look down on the Sneetches with none upon thars.

In reply to Beer Baron :

Religion is far from the only cause of strife, but to me, without question, it has been a huge contributing factor and convenient, powerful tool.

Saving reading all of this for later. Page 1 was excellent. But, in before the assured lock.

If we non-believers were left alone in this thread it would probably proceed with no drama. I suspect it will get locked when the believers feel the need to defend their beliefs.

Duke said:

In reply to Beer Baron :

Religion is far from the only cause of strife, but to me, without question, it has been a huge contributing factor and convenient, powerful tool.

I'm not questioning correlation. I'm questioning causation. It's easy to say, "Religion causes tribalism that leads to people being horrible to each other." I'm wondering if the case is, "People's natural tendency to be tribal and horrible to each other leads to them codifying religions as an easy way to identify and justify their behavior."

As societies grow more secular, you see social structures and devout beliefs that look a lot like religions, sects, and cults, just not couched in a supernatural mythology.

Take Russia as a safer example. Expressly atheist, but the people in power build up the sort of mythology and reverence that you would expect of religious leaders, and use thought crimes of people not being "true believers" to justify punishment.

Maybe religion is a cause. Or maybe it's a dangerous tool that makes natural human violence more dangerous and lethal. I'm just trying to evaluate things I might otherwise be inclined to take for granted.

In reply to Beer Baron :

I think plays both roles - cause and effect - in different circumstances.

But again, faith != religion, and I just have no understanding of or desire for faith.

[edit] I mean, intellectually, I understand that people use faith as a crutch (for lack of a better word) or coping mechanism.  But it is absolutely ineffective for me in that capacity.

Pascal's Wager is for losers.

Slightly off topic, but I consider it still relevant: I have several times in life really WISHED that I WAS religious. It would have been a great comfort in times of sorrow! For example, it would have been so nice to be able to say "Grandma is in heaven now" when she passed, or "Selma is on doggie heaven" when the wonderful dog I grew up with died. I have genuinely envied people who are convinced that their loved once go to heaven when they die and that you will meet them again there. Or that there is a master-plan and a meaning also to horrible events!

Unfortunately, I'm convinced that there isn't a God and I even hold the sometimes unpopular belief that the world would have been a better place, had we not invented religion. 

Parents took me to Unitarian churches and even did Quaker meeting for a long time. 
 

Im heavily anti religion and a mellow atheist.  
 

though I try to live my life in a way that would be smiled upon should there be some sort of supreme being.  I just highly doubt it  childhood  cancer and child rapist priests helped cement my beliefs  

wife was raised diehard catholic.  I got married in a Catholic Church. Her dad is a deacon. I did the get married as a catholic classes though they didn't love me because I'm not baptized. 
She no longer attends catholic mass and is looking for something that more reflects her evolving ideals. 

I'm happy to live and let live.  I judge a person on their actions and how they treat me and mu family.   I'd just rather not have my tax dollars go to anything religious.  That's a big one for me  

Marjorie Suddard said:

Oops, sorry, didn't mean to let the other thread go on too long, was just going about my life and working too many hours so it was so far in with so many of the usual trolls by the time I noticed, I was pretty much out of berkeleys as to who was mean to whom. This thread is more of it and I am still fresh out. Argue away, cry foul, demand your free speech, whatever it takes for you to feel good about your mommy issues, guys. I'm out. 

Margie

I see no arguing, or people being mean in this thread at all. I see people saying what works for them and why. I haven't seen 1 post telling someone what they believe is wrong, when the other thread had many. Where do you see trolling?
 

I've seen enough terrible things in my 40 years to be pretty sure that an "all good and all powerful" God doesn't exist.  If he does, I don't really like a lot of the stuff he does. Also, the pedophilia that exists in many of the churches is pretty disgusting. 
 

I spent several years going to a Methodist church as a kid and their teachings were positive and wholesome.  That aspect I like, but I stopped going during high school.  

spitfirebill said:

I came here only to say I hope there is a hell and that Hitler and Stalin are roasting there eternally.  

Side comment.  This is another reason that I don't believe in the death penalty, above and beyond the concept of society breaking one of the first moral codes. 'DON'T KILL'.  There is no hell, what a stupid concept.  Even forgetting the number of people who've been murdered by the state who were later found to be innocent, when the guilty are dead, they're dead, that's it.  No suffering, nothing, gone.  Also we've probably wasted a gazillion dollars of state/federal money running out the legal system make lawyers rich of endless appeals and challenges.  Lock them up, make them actually suffer here on earth for their crimes, don't let them off with nothingness.

Steve_Jones said:

Marjorie Suddard said:

Oops, sorry, didn't mean to let the other thread go on too long, was just going about my life and working too many hours so it was so far in with so many of the usual trolls by the time I noticed, I was pretty much out of berkeleys as to who was mean to whom. This thread is more of it and I am still fresh out. Argue away, cry foul, demand your free speech, whatever it takes for you to feel good about your mommy issues, guys. I'm out. 

Margie

I see no arguing, or people being mean in this thread at all. I see people saying what works for them and why. I haven't seen 1 post telling someone what they believe is wrong, when the other thread had many. Where do you see trolling?
 

 

Actually, that mommy issue comment was directed at you because you seem determined to directly engage and, dude, we are not in each other's lives no matter how hard you try. My apologies to all the good people in this thread I offended, though. And thanks, NOW I'm out.

I want to add something.  My post on page one has a lot of likes, which I take to mean I seem to have found a shared agreement for my observations.  I did, purposefully,  use some quite harsh language about organized religion in general.  I would like to add, that while I strongly disagree with the concept of organized religion and believe it is the root of most evil in this world, it does not mean that I dislike those who practice or even preach it on an individual level.  I don't.  

While I strongly do not believe in any form of 'higher power', other than the laws of physics, chemistry, basically nature, I do acknowledge that religion can provide hope, comfort and community for many people.  I have personally met many really nice members of...not sure the right word.  I want to say 'clergy', or 'cloth', but I want to include Rabbis and Islamic scholars/preachers as well.  On an individual level many of these people are tremendously warm, loving, and welcoming with nothing but true love in their hearts for their fellow man (as in human, not gendered).  But just because they as individuals are really doing the good in the world they claim their religions represent, unfortunate they are still representing and forwarding those same faiths that demean women, are used to demean minorities, cover up sexual abuse, prevent women having control over their own bodies, support violone against other nations, seek to diminish and oppress those of the LBGTQ+ community etc.

ddavidv said:

If we non-believers were left alone in this thread it would probably proceed with no drama. I suspect it will get locked when the believers feel the need to defend their beliefs.

How did I do above?

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

Fred Rogers is one of my personal heroes. If I can look at any person who I can point to as a model I'd like to strive to be more like, it's him.

He was devoutly religious. I'm sure that belief guided his actions.

At the same time, what he preached and embodied every day, anyone can believe and follow without needing his religious faith. If you asked him to find bible passages to support why the way he treated people was right, I'm sure he could find them. But he never needed to tell anyone, "This is right because the bible says so." What he embodied and taught on how we should all act was right because it was right. Period.

I'm glad Fred Rogers' faith helped him lead the life he did and be the example he was. But nothing he ever said or did told me I had to hold the same faith as him to try to follow his example.

Baptized Episcopalian, never really believed it even from a young age. As I got older I read the bible, studied philosophy, it made even less sense to me. I've always loved this quote from Epicurus:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"