I'm in a hell of a mess...

One thing I learned with the custody battle that my sister is going through is that as long as there aren't any glaring problems, the court pretty much doesn't alter custody. To anyone reading who might find themselves in a similar situation in the future, work very hard for 50/50 from the get go.
As to your problem, About all you can do is lay your finances in front of the judge and see what happens. Keep in mind that pretty much all of your expenses will be compared to "the children". Car payment? You would rather drive a reliable car than feed " the children"? Too bad, sell it and buy a beater. You want to live in a decent place? Too bad! The children! There isn't really any way out of this. It is what it is.

I don't like this thread . Sorry to hear about the situation

the only thing I can think of.. is the CC debt. If she racked that up after the separation, shouldn't that be her problem only?

In Canada they take a portion of your income.

I know more than one guy who flips burgers to have an "on the books" job that they take the percentage out of, then has a cash job to make up the rest of his income so he doesn't get screwed too badly.

Depending on how long the child support will have to run for, think about the alternatives. If you get caught, with good behaviour, you might be out of prison in less time than you would spend paying child support.

In reply to Trans_Maro:

In Canada you'e probably right, in the US, you're probably expected to pay it back when you get out.

I meant he should also think about using the "Three S's"

And I dont think he means E36 M3 shower and shave

Trans_Maro wrote: I know more than one guy who flips burgers to have an "on the books" job that they take the percentage out of, then has a cash job to make up the rest of his income so he doesn't get screwed too badly. Depending on how long the child support will have to run for, think about the alternatives. If you get caught, with good behaviour, you might be out of prison in less time than you would spend paying child support.

I am not a fan of the messed up system we have for post-divorce settlements, but I have a big problem with this.

It's not him that is getting screwed. It's his kids.

His kids have a father who is so self centered he would rather lie to the government and commit fraud so he can keep his money then provide for them.

Child support is just that. It's support for your own kids. Your responsibility for their upbringing didn't end after you were done berkeleying their Momma.

Yeah, alimony is a PITA. Yeah, the courts are unbalanced. Yeah, there are plenty of women out there trying to screw with the system.

But seriously guys.

For the record, I am still with my wife. But 95.77% of my income goes to support my kids and my family. I put 4.23% in my pocket each month.

I empathize with the OP- sounds like he is really in a mess, and is being taken advantage of. But to the guys out there who want to lie about their income to avoid paying child support, I say grow a pair.

I also have a big problem with it but supporting your kids is one thing, getting berkeleyed over by your ex-wife is another.

If she wants full custody, then she should have full custody of the costs as well.

From what I've seen, the system rules against the father 99% of the time, no matter how much he wants to step up and no matter how good a father he is.

How much of that ends up helping the kids anyway? I'd bet mommy gets a new pair of shoes once a month instead.

Of course ask your attorney how this affects the divorce but: improve yourself? Your income is too low and the path this is setting you on will destroy you financially and probably get you in legal trouble because of you inability to meet the terms of the divorce. Set out a 2-4 year plan that will have you making good money at the end. School is the easy button but if there's some other way you know of do that. While you are setting this in motion: prior to the divorce Change the arrangements so the kids spend at least 50% of the time with you. With you doesn't mean do nothing but hang out with kids and don't work, it mostly means you are responsible for after school through mornings and through the weekends. Plenty of time to study and go to class. You will also qualify for cheap day care, cheap school, subsidised insurance, etc... If pride makes you not want to take the assistance then take it anyway and remember that it's being used to make you able to provide better life for your children.

Child Support laws are archaic in most states, and the Dads always get screwed by default. The first thing that is hurting you is the 70/30 split. That means less time with your kids and more money out of pocket. Judges are not apt to change what the kids are used to, but the split is something a sympathetic judge might adjust if your story is compelling. If you honestly want your kids more, then make your case. If it is just to save money, the judge will see right through you.

You have to have an equally nice and accommodating home for them, and can spend an equal amount of time with them as mom, and you really, truly want to spend equal time with your kids. Make your case that the 70/30 split happened because there was a lot of turmoil and you wanted to protect your kids as much as possible, but now that you are settled you want as much time with your kids as you can get. It is sexist that dads don't get equal time and many states are starting to adjust their laws to reflect the role that the modern dad plays in their children's lives...a decent lawyer can help with precedent.

After that, the formulas are completely stupid and based on outdated information and policy, and again they hurt dad 99% of the time. Even with a 50/50 split, you won't pay 50% of the expenses, and your actual expenses don't matter...only what the government chart SAYS your expenses are. So your only option here is to lay out to the judge your overall expenses and show what a hardship the government formula would be. The state cannot take so much of your money that you cannot live, it is against the law. So show that paying that much child support would put you on the street and impact your ability to keep a job and then there would be no money for the kids. No one wants that. Offer a fair compromise, with an increase over time.

The formula is also based upon your level of income and hers, so make sure that you have a REAL accounting of her income...you want to see a W2. And be sure that yours is not artificially inflated by a bonus or recent short-term windfall. That amount will serve as the baseline for years to come, so you want it as accurate and repeatable as possible. NEVER, never talk about things being unfair or try to make changes just to save yourself some money. The focus always has to be on the kids welfare and spending quality time with them and being able to provide for them long-term.

And don't listen to the haters who have never been through the hell that is modern divorce and child support. They have no clue how unfair the system is to a Father. You are not trying to get out of supporting your kids...you are just trying to pay your fair share. Remember, if Mom has primary custody she never has to actually pay a dime of her portion, it is just assumed that she does. You on the other hand have to cut a check each and every month or go to jail. Ask any married man if he spends an exact amount of money on his kids, every single month without fail No, some months he might spend nothing at all if the kids don't need shoes or toys. And we are not talking about mortgage and utilities and food here, that is in addition to the child support. Nor are we talking about long term investments like college savings...dad is doing that in addition to child support. Try taking on that burden in addition to a new mortgage, car payment and furnishings and still trying to see your kids.

Wow. Sorry to hear of this. First and foremost: do NOT sign that thing. Don't put your signature on ANYTHING at this point, I don't care what your attorney says.

In this country, the average guy gets screwed when it comes to divorce. Don't believe all those so called 'studies' which 'show' that a guy's situation improves and the wife's deteriorates after a divorce, that is the exception and not the rule. It is time for you to circle the wagons and protect yourself. This won't hurt the kids and in fact will help. Which is worse for them, seeing that you are providing for them and for yourself or having them see you hanging on by a fingernail?

I agree, do NOT threaten your ex in any way. Down that path lies ruin. Now, something you CAN do: forget 50/50 or 70/30 custody. Go for 100% and use the infidelity (IIRC this is what led to the breakup in the first place) as your reason, I don't care what your attorney says. If he keeps stalling and refusing, fire his ass and hire someone else. Warning: if you go this way, it may be rough and will involve dragging her through the mud. Here's the rationale: she put herself in that position. She has made her bed, she needs to lie in it. That 1/2 of the CC debt? She needs to prove that was done for the support of all concerned (you, her, the kids) of it's all on her. FWIW, I refused to accept any part of my ex's debts and she refused any part of mine; the only thing we had to settle was the mortgage on the house and a small account we used for transferring funds back and forth.

Having come out of the gate HARD, now it's negotiation time. You can agree to a different custody percentage in exchange for a drop in the child custody amount. As long as the ex is working and bringing in $ this won't hurt the kids but will guarantee you a monthly amount you can live on.

Something else to be very wary of: in many settlements there's a clause which says, in effect, that if your income goes up a larger amount must be paid to your ex. I know this because it's in my divorce settlement, the difference is she pays ME, not the other way around. Even though the child support was set way back when her income was very low and it's increased since then I have not exercised that clause because honestly 1) I don't really need it and 2) the amount just wouldn't be worth the aggravation of court time etc.

FWIW, there's not exactly a huge body of info on this, but from what I understand there's a lot of ex-pats in Mexico and countries south who got hit with onerous child support and just chose to disappear. I don't advocate this because I think a man's kids are the most important things he will accomplish. I point this out to show just how bad child support and alimony agreements can get; they go past the point of support and become punishment (which is what your ex is really after BTW).

I really really hope this works out for you. Good luck.

How old are you? Perhaps you should enlist in the military? Your money will still get taken, but food, shelter, healthcare, etc will be provided for you.

To echo Curmudgeon, always ask for 100% of everything because then you have room for compromise.

I hope like hell you have your own attorney. Otherwise you are screwed, blued and tattooed.

The child support should also have your income factored into it. At least in SC it does.

This first statement is a comment on the general feelings expressed in this thread and in no way aimed at the OP. I disagree with the settlement that it's always the fathers that get screwed. I've seen both side's get screwed many times, I just think that as mainly a group of guys we tend to see the guys side of things, step back and look as some of your female friends who may be divorced before condemning the system to always favor the mom.

Now more specifically. I would say avoid lawyering up if at all possible. I've lived this for a large part of my married life. My Step daughter is just turning 20, so all the custody stuff is behind us. But up until our daughter was 17 it was nothing but an ongoing battle. My wife's ex fought everything, schooling, custody, parenting time, holidays, travel, passports, who got to keep school work (from the private school we paid for and he tried to pull her out of). Everything. For the last 5 or 6 years my wife started representing herself, but prior to that the legal fees were just astronomical, like I could have bought a new Porsche or paid down the mortgage or had a whole lot healthier retirement massive. If you lawyer up you may find even if you get a better deal then the $650 a month you've got now could seem like luxury to what you're left with after hundreds of hours of legal fees.

I'd definitely talk to your 'friend of the court' or whatever it's called in your state. If you are having to take on her debt, why don't you get a bigger share of the house. Does ADAM or whatever it's called operate in your state? They advertise on the radio here in Michigan all the time.

I disagree with not lawyering up. Regular readers of the drivel I post will recall that I am no fan of the legal profession but unfortunately that's the world we live in. I went into my divorce wanting to have a fair and equitable split, then I had a short phone conversation with her attorney and changed my mind IMMEDIATELY. This was AFTER offering my ex a easy 50/50 split, liberal child custody etc., that's when she hired a lawyer. I hired an attorney and she gave me basically the advice I offered above: come out of the gate HARD, go after EVERYTHING, let it simmer for a while then be open to negotiation. Since I had hard proof of my ex's infidelity her attorney eventually backed off, realizing that she wasn't dealing from a point of strength. (FWIW, my attorney mused once that the opposing attorney had been known to tell her clients that a man who hit his wife was generally screwed and my ex most definitely tried to get me to hit her. It wasn't couched as advice (that is illegal), merely a story she would tell. Beware that pitfall! Also, do NOT be alone with your ex, not even for a few minutes. ALWAYS have a witness for you, not for her.)

EDIT: It really seems odd to be having this conversation when 2 out of 3 TV ads are for diamonds etc and are pushing 'it's time to propose' real hard.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I disagree with the settlement that it's always the fathers that get screwed. I've seen both side's get screwed many times, I just think that as mainly a group of guys we tend to see the guys side of things, step back and look as some of your female friends who may be divorced before condemning the system to always favor the mom.

how 'bout instead of "the guy ALWAYS gets screwed" we just go with, "the system is skewed" towards the woman …

and just for s/g's … I've yet to hear about a woman getting screwed (to the degree that men tend to be) in a divorce settlement (I'm sure they're out there, just all I ever hear about is the man that ends up living under a bridge so that he can make his child support payments) .. which sounds like what's going to happen in this case if nothing changes

There's a reason that I haven't gotten married or had children. From a logical standpoint, it seems like a lose-lose situation for a man. The potential for the little joys is far outweighed by the potential for soul-crushing emotional and financial loss. Holding out for the perfect mate seems worth it.

My friend's wife cheated on him, abandoned him with their four kids for a year, then served him with divorce papers. She got half of everything and then some, and after being denied alimony due to the infidelity, she filed for main custody of the kids, which she got. His child support payments were based on his income from his business, which he had to sell in order to give her 50%, so now he was unemployed owing child support payments based on a non-existant $100k salary. She took a job as a part time bus driver, put the kids on state funded health insurance, and pocketed the money he paid for a private health care plan. This was all after presenting evidence in court of her infidelity and her disappearance. As a bonus she's been turning the kids against him.

So, come out swinging HARD. Ideally find one of those lawyers that advertises on the sports talk radio stations that "protects father's rights and their financial abilities".

Seems to me the whole process should be done without names. A couple wants to divorce, the judge and the system, aside from representing attorneys have no idea which is the father or mother.

rotard wrote: There's a reason that I haven't gotten married or had children. From a logical standpoint, it seems like a lose-lose situation for a man. The potential for the little joys is far outweighed by the potential for soul-crushing emotional and financial loss. Holding out for the perfect mate seems worth it.

This is the reason for the increase in guys who just never get married or if they do it's with a pre nuptial. Too many states skew things in favor of the woman even in cases of abandonment, adultery, you name it.

My attorney told me my case had an extremely unusual outcome for a SC divorce. Having known guys who had gotten shafted big time (and again these are the ones you don't read about) I was honestly expecting to be screwed blued and tattooed.

PHeller wrote: Seems to me the whole process should be done without names. A couple wants to divorce, the judge and the system, aside from representing attorneys have no idea which is the father or mother.

Absolutely brilliant PHeller.

Can you imagine the look on the faces of all those people that swear there’s no gender bias when you advise them that the mother and father will only be known to the courts as plaintiff “A” and plaintiff “B”...priceless

PHeller wrote: Seems to me the whole process should be done without names. A couple wants to divorce, the judge and the system, aside from representing attorneys have no idea which is the father or mother.

Having been through the process. IMO the way I'd like to see it done is old school dueling rules. 9 MM or knitting needles I don't care but one way or another there is closure. That way there would be some incentive to actually work on things. As it stands now there is no "divorce penalty" for the custodial parent.

rotard wrote: There's a reason that I haven't gotten married or had children. From a logical standpoint, it seems like a lose-lose situation for a man. The potential for the little joys is far outweighed by the potential for soul-crushing emotional and financial loss. Holding out for the perfect mate seems worth it.

Emphasized for truth. Too many folks get married for lust or loneliness without thinking much beyond that. I can speak from experience because my first was definitely in that category. (Did MUCH better the second time around).

I'll never forget-- after I went through my divorce my best friend met a woman that he told me he was going to marry. Apparently, she had already stockpiled Pampers and was looking for a husband because she had it in her head that she had to have a kid before she hit forty. And when I tried to counsel him a bit all he could talk about were her "perfect breasts." Needless to say, they divorced a few years later. She has custody of the kid and he has a LOT of bills. I will say, he has been one dedicated father. A lesser man would have been driven off by her craziness years ago.