Renting Woes, Need Experiences Take 2

This is dealing with the apartment we just moved out of after living there for 5 years.

When we notified them of lease termination, we went into the office and signed a bunch of forms. One of them was an explanation of charges for damages/cleaning we could possibly incur. This was handy, because it told us where to focus our efforts.

Management and ourselves signed this form.

The two that stood out were:
1) Miniblind replacement - $30 (Whatever, i'm not going to bother doing it myself to save $5 at most)
2) Carpet cleaning - All residents are required to have professional carpet cleaning done before move out. Failure to do so will result in an approximately $150 charge (Price can vary depending on size of unit).

The second one is what i have a problem with. After looking at costs, and with the knowledge that we had the smallest floor plan available at this complex, i said "berkeley it," and figured we'd just pay them the $150.

Total "Damages" upon move out: $180.

Deposit: $99

Total owed: $81

I'm cool with this.

They FINALLY just sent us the last balance due for the place, and they want me to pay $30 for the miniblind (fine), and $360 for carpet cleaning.

Their actual detailed description of services: "1. Carpet clean and power scrub $360.00 2. One set of mini blinds $30.00"

We moved out 23 days ago. I just got the balance due notice today. They're requiring payment within 7 days. (LOL.)

How do i politely tell them that i find it pretty misleading that their own form signed by everyone involved shows that we would owe $150 for carpet cleaning, not almost 250% that amount, and that i'll be by with their check for $81, now please berkeley off thankyouverymuch?

I'm not paying $360 to clean 5+ year old $0.19/sqft carpet that really needs to be replaced and not cleaned.

What are my options if they come back and say "Too bad, so sad, pay us or we'll send the account to collections."

I'd be more than happy to take this one to court on their dime. I have enough saved correspondence from them showing general ineptitude and i SERIOUSLY doubt they have records of when the carpet was replaced last (They replace every 7 years, according to this form we signed.), so making the argument that it was past replacement date anyways (very well might be) wouldn't be hard to do at all.

If it were me, I'd do small claims court.

Actually, if it were me I'd start a carpet cleaning business and carpet the complex with flyers advertising carpet cleaning for $75. Same thing happened to me when I moved out of my complex. I came back to it, they didn't do anything that the charged me for, but it just wasn't worth it for the money involved ($47.23 in my case).

Good luck, you're fighting an uphill battle.

So, in this case, I can take THEM to small claims?

What would be the grounds/complaint? I haven't actually done this before.

Not sure. Not sure that it is actually legal/possible.

Send them a check for $150+$30, along with a copy of the signed document that shows the $180 estimate. Let them take you to court if they have an issue. If they do, tell the judge that you had the smallest floorplan and that there is no reason to expect anything beyond the lowest cost to clean per/ft...which was estimated by the management to be $180 as shown on the document.

Going to small claims court for $150 doesn't sound worth it. Do you have pictures of the carpets when you moved out?

Datsun1500 wrote: Show up in person. Ask to see the unit. Let them know if you are going to be charged for the cleaning, you want to make sure it got cleaned. Don't dispute the amount yet. If they show you the place and it has been replaced, take a photo and refuse to pay anything. If it's been cleaned, show them the form where everyone agreed it was $150.

Sounds like a good plan.

Am i going to get berkeleyed by the weird lawyer verbage after the $150 on the form where it says "This is approximate based on size of unit?"

FSP_ZX2 wrote: Send them a check for $150+$30, along with a copy of the signed document that shows the $180 estimate. Let them take you to court if they have an issue. If they do, tell the judge that you had the smallest floorplan and that there is no reason to expect anything beyond the lowest cost to clean per/ft...which was estimated by the management to be $180 as shown on the document.

Hrmmm... this seems cleaner and that way i don't have to make trip out there and deal with them.

The question is: if i do that, will they actually go to court, or will they (can they?) just send the account straight to collections?

PHeller wrote: Going to small claims court for $150 doesn't sound worth it. Do you have pictures of the carpets when you moved out?

SWMBO might have pics of the carpets, but i don't know that it matters. They DID need a cleaning. Hell, they needed to be replaced. I'm not disputing being charged for cleaning if they did actually clean them.

I've always thought that after a couple-few years that carpet replacement is standard and they should not charge the tenant anything. After 5 years there has to be a considerate amount of wear and tear that is assumed and the tenant is not liable for petty E36 M3 like that.

Pretty sure you'd prevail in a court--in which case they would have to retract the collection order. They would have to show good reason as to why the estimate was off by 250%.

There should be a correspondence to you asking for the additional $210 before it goes to collection, at which time you could threaten legal action as to the gross misrepresentation of the estimate, which you all agreed to by signing it.

In reply to Cone_Junkie:

Their standard is actually 7 years according to their lease.

"Pre-mature" carpet replacement cost is pro-rated. So in this case, if they had just replaced it and charged me remainder (after producing proof of when it was last replaced), I would have been on the hook for about 28.5% the cost.

Which again, if documented, i'm cool with.

I never understood how they can just charge you for that kinda crap. They should forced to give you an accurate estimate so you can shop around.

Actually... am i right in thinking that they can't even send this thing to collections until there's been a judgement?

I've had an apt attempt this on me once, and I got them with the exact same thing you did, the carpet was ratty as berkeley when we moved in. Didn't help that I burned it a lil bit myself (there was a grease fire...so I was told) but since the carpet was doomed to be replaced- I got off the hook on a technicality.

Datsun1500 wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: SWMBO might have pics of the carpets, but i don't know that it matters. They DID need a cleaning. Hell, they needed to be replaced. I'm not disputing being charged for cleaning if they did actually clean them.

Which is why I would take the time to look and see if they actually did it. I am betting they replaced it. If they replaced it, I would say I owe you nothing. At that point the trip was worth $150-$250 to you.

Yeah, forgot SWMBO is off work tomorrow, so she's going to go look at it. Heaven help them if they piss her off.

Pay the berkeleyers... in nickles...brought to them in a filthy, dirty knee sock.

Update:

SWMBO just went over there. And i quote:

SWMBO: "Suupposedly getting a copy of the carpet cleaning invoice nose. You can deal with them. This is ridiculous."

Me: "Did they let you in to see the unit?"

SWMBO: "Nope she refused. Said they have possession now and have vendors working in it so I can't see it. I told them that you'd be back in to deal with it and probably wouldn't be so pleasant."

SWMBO: "She refused to admit the berkeley ups, kept going in circles."

Me: "Tell her you don't even have to go in, can look from the doorway."

SWMBO: "She said no to any of my requests."

Me: "I'd tell her that if you can't see then they'd better go ahead and put in paperwork for a court date now."

SWMBO: "I've already left."

Me: "Ah ok. Did they produce a legit bill showing services rendered?"

SWMBO: "Fill in the blank deal from One Way Restoration."

Me: "lol seems legit."

So here's the deal: They're refusing to let us see the unit to see what really happened.

I also looked on One Way Restoration's site and found this: http://www.onewayclean.com/index.html

Site said:Carpet Restoration One Way™ annually saves apartment communities millions of dollars in carpet replacement costs with our proprietary Color Restoration process. Our unique Color Restore system*™ is specifically designed to rejuvenate severely damaged carpets that are typically replaced. We transform seemingly irreparable carpets to a nearly new condition. The results are borderline miraculous, while saving our clients~70% versus carpet replacement costs. The average cost for a two bedroom apartment Color Restoration: $265 versus replacement costs of $700-$1000

Before:

After:

We aren't berkeleying total slobs living in filth. The carpet was nowhere near that dirty, it was just really worn because it's cheapass carpet that had been used for 5+ years.

We have a copy of the invoice, which only shows the charges being $285 (still over twice what we signed, which turns out was actually $125.). Supposedly $30 for using some portal payment services charge. (Why is this my problem?)

Management can't tell us where the other $55 is magically coming from.

SO.

My two questions:

1) How to proceed?

2) Am i right in thinking that they can't legally send this account to collections, as we have not agreed to these charges? Wouldn't a judgement be necessary in this case?

NOW, i will say that we did find the original form we signed off on again, and this was at the top:

Form said: Top of the cleaning paper, "information below should serve as a guide for estimated cleaning and damage charges. Please note that the amounts below are estimates only, 3rd party companies are often used and actual charges may be higher or lower depending on actual costs"

I'm thinking this doesn't matter. The form was not a "you owe us this" deal, it was "These are the charges you may be subject to for damages upon move out."

Thoughts? Help?

Send a friend over to take a look at the apartment as if he is interested in renting. Have him take pictures.

mtn wrote: Send a friend over to take a look at the apartment as if he is interested in renting. Have him take pictures.

If they really have "vendors" in there rehabbing the place (more on that in a second.), then they won't let them in either. They don't actually show every apartment. They just have a few that they keep as "showrooms" then stick you in another one when you sign the lease. We didn't see our place until the day we signed the lease as well.

As for the vendors...

This place about 3 years ago started upgrading their units to hardwood floors, updated stainless steel appliances, track lighting, etc. Then charging about $250-300/month more than previous costs. The last 2 years that we renewed our lease, we were pressured to move into one of those units, but we refused.

Every unit in our building that remained vacant for more than 30 days was upgraded. As far as i can tell, there were only two out of the 8 in our building that remained the "old style." (sea of beige carpet, white appliances, outdated lighting.)

My guess is that if they STILL have vendors in there almost a month after the move out date, they're upgrading the unit. And i'll be damned if they're going to do it on my dime. They already got over $40k out of me. I paid for that upgrade already.

So essentially I was right? They cannot legally send it to collections prior to it going to court?

Should I maybe send them a letter certified mail, along with a check for what I actually owe (assuming they did actually clean the carpet) and the letter say something like "Here's payment. By cashing, you enter an agreement that the remaining balance has been satisfied. If you refuse, you must legally initiate court proceedings in order to obtain a judgement to collect any other amount."

Good plan?

Swank Force One wrote: So essentially I was right? They cannot legally send it to collections prior to it going to court? Should I maybe send them a letter certified mail, along with a check for what I actually owe (assuming they did actually clean the carpet) and the letter say something like "Here's payment. By cashing, you enter an agreement that the remaining balance has been satisfied. If you refuse, you must legally initiate court proceedings in order to obtain a judgement to collect any other amount." Good plan?

I would think so; pay the invoiced amount for actual cleaning and the blind. Include the signed estimate and make reference to that as well, noting that the actual fee was well in excess of the estimate.

Here in Ontario, Canada they are only allowed to charge a surplus of 10% over the estimate. I'd call a couple carpet cleaning places and get quotes on the apartment square footage and see what the going rate it. i'd guess they are charging extra to have someone there to open and close the apartment for the cleaners

In reply to FSP_ZX2:

What I meant was pay $125 for cleaning and $30 for blinds, not the $360 for cleaning and $30 for blinds they're trying to extort.

Still bueno?

Yep. Include the signed estimate...that is pretty key IMO.

There's a $99 deposit in play here. If I dont pay for carpet, they owe me money.

Which I like, but also doesnt give as easy of an "out" in the chess game I dont think. I'd be counting on their greedy asses to just go ahead and cash my check for $56, effectively sealing the deal.